2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

[Andres125sx]

Bad race for Carlos, I think he will learn from it. But those incidents are something usual on narrow tracks.

I think they´ve been too harsh with Carlos. When you watch the replay from the helicopter, Grosjean still had more than a full meter of tarmac at his right, so not that Carlos force him out of track exactly. At a start you can´t ask a driver to let more than a car width at each side, and there was more than a car width at his right

Sincerely, to me it looked more like a usual racing incident, a three position penalty for next GP to me look too harsh considering the traffic and free space at Grosjean right side

Hasn't Grosjean been suspended for a quite similar accident? The main difference was only that Massa was the innocent victim and not Alonso.

I don´t like comparing accidents, as circumstances are always different so comparing usually becomes an apples to oranges comparison. For example, Grosjean didn´t let any track space to Lewis in Spa so Lewis could do nothing to avoid the accident, while Grosjean still had some space at his right and only crashed because, I guess, he was assuming Carlos was conscious about his position when he was not. But there was some space at his right while Carlos was coming to him at his left. That´s a huge difference wich makes the comparison pointless, as usual

[turbof1]

So, another race done. I have to say a lot less controversial things have happened in this thread! All of you guys should be punished as I had a terrible itch in my Warning finger all week long, was waiting to use it this weekend and now it's left unsatisfied .

Still, some things I felt that were over the top:

[person] is a know troll, who comes out of hiding when Hamilton wins. Nothing to see here.

Looks like Ferrari have quite an advanced technology. They can remotely induce a break issue to remove their No.2 from their No.1's path.

First learn how to spell BRAKE then go provocate. Peace

First learn how to spell BRAKE then go provocate. Peace

Or even provoke...

(Unless you're a Yank, in which case carry on mauling the English language)

Oh... so much hurt you guys are. I love this.

A little reality check to some.

The first quote was unnecessarily being personal. The second quote started out as joke (which is ok as far as I am concerned) ending up in an off-topic grammar bash contest. The 3d quote is unnecessary instigating. And then we had this:

My comment removed! I am honored. Ferrari mods here! go ferrari yourselves you naughty mods

Lol.

I've noticed that trend as well, these ferrai biased mods are destroying any type of objectiveity on these boards.

We get that often no matter if you delete a part that favours Mercedes or Ferrari (favouring might not be the right word as it often resembles sect-like worshipping). Curiously, we only get that for either Ferrari or Mercedes and maybe once and a while for Red Bull, but other teams are left out even when we take moderational action regarding out of line comments towards these other teams. I'm still waiting for the day somebody calls me a Sauber-lover or a HAAS-hater.

If you are going to insult us, please do so factually correct and call us "Ferrari/Mercedes fanboy haters/lovers". Our decisions never have anything to do with us so called favouring one team over the other.

We also got some great replies!

I think for Merc fans before the race, a 7 point recovery is probably the best they could have hoped for. And who's to say Vettel could not have actually won. So 13 in one race is plenty. Back on top of Constructors as well.

For Ferrari fans, at some points of the race it was starting to look like 25 points lost. So to get back up to 4th place should be more encouraging.

So it could have been better for both camps but it certainly could have been worse. And a very good race to boot.

For the points situation, now I wouldn't even bother. Still a very large part of the season yet to go. It could all still be won, and lost in both championships.

People need to chill out

#modapprovedchillingout

Looks like Ferrari have quite an advanced technology. They can remotely induce a break issue to remove their No.2 from their No.1's path.

#modapprovedjokingabout

Now excuse me while I Ferrari myself in private.

[WaikeCU]

Now excuse me while I Ferrari myself in private.

Ew.

[Sieper]

"Maybe you´re not a hater, but you look like one or you wouldn´t be assuming he´s lying

And no, I´m fan of Alonso, then there are some other drivers I like: Hamilton, Sainz, Ricciardo, Verstappen when I can focus on his driving talent rather than his childish behaviour... but no, Sainz is only growing on me since he performed very similar to Max (despite the points difference due to mechanical problems) and beats Kvyat fair and square. But no fanboyism here, unlike you who assume he´s lying simply because... why exactly? You sincerely think he was pushing his rival out of track at the inner side of the track??? Only a retard would do that, as after that the car will obviously cross the track like it did and there are huge chances it will crash and ruin his own race. Dirty drivers push cars out of track at the outside, not at the inside, that would be utterly stupid"

No I don't think Sainz is a lyer, I think he just cannot be honest (enough) with himself yet, a point I hope he will improve. He does takes these risks too lightly. I am not saying he has the intention to ram Grosjean, nor did he have the intention to ram Alonso last year in mexico, of course not. But he does want to defend too fiercely in situations where this is not possible anymore (and indeed possibly dangerous/counter productive).

[Wynters]

Yes, Ocon spent last third of the race glued to Perez´s gearbox.... as Perez spent half of the race glued to Ricciardo´s gearbox

Indeed. But, by the time Ocon was asking to get a shot at the Red Bull, Perez wasn't able to challenge Ric as his tyres had lost their grip.

That arguing would be correct if Perez was in clean air, but he wasn´t, so his pace was obvously faster than he was able to show while in RBR dirty air, wich means we can´t know who was faster Perer or Ocon.

At that point in the race, when Perez was dropping out of DRS range whilst Ocon was practically pushing him along, I think that Ocon was faster. The other interpretation is that Perez was deliberately dropping back, giving up his chance at a Podium just to push his team mate into the jaws of a much faster Ferrari (which Perez later made no attempt to defend his place from). Of the two scenarios, I think Perez's tryes going off is a more logical one than Perez deliberately sabotaging himself and his team mate, no?

Even if we were to ignore every other point, Ocon lost seconds going off the circuit when Vettel passed him. Perez lost no time when Vettel passed him. What was the gap when they crossed the finish line?

And mentioning Carlos Slim does not add anything to the dicussion, except if you´re putting in doubt Checho talent. I hope that´s not your intention...

The original poster claimed that Checo has never been given anything. I suggested that, perhaps, he might've been. That's why I specifically quoted that section of their post. I'm not questioning his talent at all and it's odd that you would bring such an aspersion into it, both implying I said something I demonstrably did not and deliberately ignoring the context I was careful to put in place.

If I didn't think he was a good driver, I wouldn't be saying that Ocon should have DotD for, among other things, being faster than Perez yesterday.

Add to that Perez spent more time in dirty air when compared to Ocon, then I don´t think a position swap would have been fair at all.

Agreed, not fair to Perez at all. But the team needs every point it can get. Whilst swapping is definitely not fair to Perez, is Perez putting himself before the team fair to every other employee of Force India?

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Absolute Savage! Will Buxton asking Perez, was he racing for himself or for Force India?
At 13:50.

[iotar__]

Absolute Savage! Will Buxton asking Perez, was he racing for himself or for Force India?
At 13:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9QYdj_GHWI

The same Buxton that said Stroll crashed during tests because he had superquick reaction ? Shocking, coverage of F1 is below the bottom level. Makes you wonder if would have asked Hamilton the same question after Hun '14 or AD '16.

- Ocon's theoretical radio speed case would have been stronger if he hadn't failed at the first sign of pressure during Vettel overtake. Never mind lack of a single pass attempt on Perez or any proof of abilities from previous races. I wouldn't waste team orders nor bet a cent on him overtaking Ricciardo.

- Instead of selling podium fairy tales he should start with qualifying. He was 6 times behind and once in front by accident. Same here, it was Perez in front of Raikkonen and stuck behind Riccardo losing tyres and time which caused the whole situation.

[Manjhi]

SFI's pace in Canada impressed a lot, Red Bull in serious trouble for Baku & Austrian GP.

[The_table]

Ocon was very impressive this race, he stayed within 1s and 0.5s of Perez until the very end and did not collapse under pressure, he went off to stay out of trouble with Vettel AND he asked the team to switch the drivers so he could have a go instead of doing a hail mary overtake up the inside.
(I think Perez's DRS nullified Ocon's DRS ?)

Vettel's charge back to the front was pretty mighty.

[TAG]

Absolute Savage! Will Buxton asking Perez, was he racing for himself or for Force India?

Perez reached out to Ferrari immediately after the race to make sure they approved.

[Andres125sx]

"Maybe you´re not a hater, but you look like one or you wouldn´t be assuming he´s lying

And no, I´m fan of Alonso, then there are some other drivers I like: Hamilton, Sainz, Ricciardo, Verstappen when I can focus on his driving talent rather than his childish behaviour... but no, Sainz is only growing on me since he performed very similar to Max (despite the points difference due to mechanical problems) and beats Kvyat fair and square. But no fanboyism here, unlike you who assume he´s lying simply because... why exactly? You sincerely think he was pushing his rival out of track at the inner side of the track??? Only a retard would do that, as after that the car will obviously cross the track like it did and there are huge chances it will crash and ruin his own race. Dirty drivers push cars out of track at the outside, not at the inside, that would be utterly stupid"

No I don't think Sainz is a lyer, I think he just cannot be honest (enough) with himself yet, a point I hope he will improve. He does takes these risks too lightly. I am not saying he has the intention to ram Grosjean, nor did he have the intention to ram Alonso last year in mexico, of course not. But he does want to defend too fiercely in situations where this is not possible anymore (and indeed possibly dangerous/counter productive).

So you think drivers always know all cars around them at the first lap while battling for each centimeter of tarmac. Ok, I think different as on starts you usually focus on the cars in front of you, and also because he simply said otherwise.

He could have said he let Grosjean MORE than a car width space, wich would have been true and accurate. I see no reason for him to lie or for you to assume he´s intentionally lying...

[Phil]

So, a number of Web publications went wrong in assessing the Merc's tyre situation. The one publication that was used as a reference on the race thread before the practice began, was from AMUS.

A member here posted this.

Amus expects Merc to struggle here aswell. They need fast corners to get and hold the tires in the window. Canada with its stop&go nature makes it hard. Some of the deficit might be compensated by The engine / PU.

What puzzled me when the bold predictions were being made about Mercedes struggling on tyres, is a simple fact that people were missing that this a totally different circuit to Monaco and ignoring the evidence of previous race of Spain where Merc was faster through the slower S3 sector.

There could yet again be places where Merc might struggle again if they do not fully understand the issues. Toto admits that they don't know the "Holy grail" of tyre issues. But to blindly and boldly concur that Merc is going to struggle was quite amateurish, instead of waiting to see what unfolds.

I was using a simple logic to see if Merc are going to be good or not on tyres and that was, if they were going to take a lap longer than Ferraris to put temperature in tyres, they are in trouble. If they just take as many laps are Ferrari are taking to get the tyres upto temperature and coming closer to Ferrari's lap times, then they are in good shape. Practice times confirmed my feeling and I sort of expected a close fight for pole and race win.

Mercedes was indeed quick in the twisty part of Spain (S3), but that in itself means little. They were quick in S3 because the rest of the track (lots of high speed corners and DF) allowed them to get the tires into the right operating window where they performed best (and the Mercedes is obviously a quick car, even through corners that demand mechanical grip and are tight and twisty). This of course has a positive effect on the sectors where mechanical grip is important (S3). Monaco ended up being a problem because Mercedes struggled to equally get all tires into the right temperature range. Either they were under, or they were over. The result was little grip.

When AMuS made their analysis, it was just after Monaco. The team confirmed that the problem lies within understanding on how to get the tires into the right temperature range and keep them there. Especially the US. The article you are mentioning took into account that Canada is very much a street circuit, has long straights (which makes it difficult to retain temperatures in the tires) and corners that rely on mechanical grip which again makes it more difficult to get heat into them vs a track where the tires are under constant load through long highspeed corners.

So the reasoning in the article was sound. It wasn't factual, it was an analysis raising doubts over if the Mercedes would be well suited or would struggle again. Mercedes invested a lot of time and effort into understanding the problem and some of that research and led to changes made during FP1, FP2 all the way to Q2 on how they would attempt to heat the tires. Arguably, Hamilton got the sweet spot, Bottas struggled. So it's not as if the problem is solved and the circuit ended up suiting Mercedes. It's far from solved, but they may be on the right track.

[cplchanb]

So, a number of Web publications went wrong in assessing the Merc's tyre situation. The one publication that was used as a reference on the race thread before the practice began, was from AMUS.

A member here posted this.

Amus expects Merc to struggle here aswell. They need fast corners to get and hold the tires in the window. Canada with its stop&go nature makes it hard. Some of the deficit might be compensated by The engine / PU.

What puzzled me when the bold predictions were being made about Mercedes struggling on tyres, is a simple fact that people were missing that this a totally different circuit to Monaco and ignoring the evidence of previous race of Spain where Merc was faster through the slower S3 sector.

There could yet again be places where Merc might struggle again if they do not fully understand the issues. Toto admits that they don't know the "Holy grail" of tyre issues. But to blindly and boldly concur that Merc is going to struggle was quite amateurish, instead of waiting to see what unfolds.

I was using a simple logic to see if Merc are going to be good or not on tyres and that was, if they were going to take a lap longer than Ferraris to put temperature in tyres, they are in trouble. If they just take as many laps are Ferrari are taking to get the tyres upto temperature and coming closer to Ferrari's lap times, then they are in good shape. Practice times confirmed my feeling and I sort of expected a close fight for pole and race win.

Mercedes was indeed quick in the twisty part of Spain (S3), but that in itself means little. They were quick in S3 because the rest of the track (lots of high speed corners and DF) allowed them to get the tires into the right operating window where they performed best (and the Mercedes is obviously a quick car, even through corners that demand mechanical grip and are tight and twisty). This of course has a positive effect on the sectors where mechanical grip is important (S3). Monaco ended up being a problem because Mercedes struggled to equally get all tires into the right temperature range. Either they were under, or they were over. The result was little grip.

When AMuS made their analysis, it was just after Monaco. The team confirmed that the problem lies within understanding on how to get the tires into the right temperature range and keep them there. Especially the US. The article you are mentioning took into account that Canada is very much a street circuit, has long straights (which makes it difficult to retain temperatures in the tires) and corners that rely on mechanical grip which again makes it more difficult to get heat into them vs a track where the tires are under constant load through long highspeed corners.

So the reasoning in the article was sound. It wasn't factual, it was an analysis raising doubts over if the Mercedes would be well suited or would struggle again. Mercedes invested a lot of time and effort into understanding the problem and some of that research and led to changes made during FP1, FP2 all the way to Q2 on how they would attempt to heat the tires. Arguably, Hamilton got the sweet spot, Bottas struggled. So it's not as if the problem is solved and the circuit ended up suiting Mercedes. It's far from solved, but they may be on the right track.

Merc indeed worked very hard to rectify the issues. Apparently from motorsport.com they worked 24/7 for 10 straight days trying to analyse and correct the monaco issues

[Sieper]

So you think drivers always know all cars around them at the first lap while battling for each centimeter of tarmac. Ok, I think different as on starts you usually focus on the cars in front of you, and also because he simply said otherwise.

He could have said he let Grosjean MORE than a car width space, wich would have been true and accurate. I see no reason for him to lie or for you to assume he´s intentionally lying...

On starts (especially in the very first corner melee with everyone at differing speeds etc.) maybe not so much, but on a straight after corners 1 and 2 (although certainly in the midfield it still was very busy) then Yes I think a driver on the level of Sainz knows exactly what is happening around him. I think he did want to block Grosjean (intentionally). They already hit eachother on the first steering input so by then he would certainly have known Grosjean was there and still he gave another steering input.

I am not calling him a liar, he is not a liar, he is a warrior on the track, a real race driver. But I think he cannot honestly admit to himself (just like the stroll incident in Bahrein) that his actions aren't always panning out as he intended. Sometimes he puts another driver in a situation (Alonso in Mexico, Stroll in Bahrein, now Grosjean) where he shouldn't have put them. If you want to see that as lying well ok, but I feel it is more nuanced, I tried to make it clear.

[TAG]

Ferrai biased mods...


We get that often no matter if you delete a part that favours Mercedes or Ferrari (favouring might not be the right word as it often resembles sect-like worshipping). Curiously, we only get that for either Ferrari or Mercedes and maybe once and a while for Red Bull

If you are going to insult us, please do so factually correct and call us "Ferrari/Mercedes fanboy haters/lovers". Our decisions never have anything to do with us so called favouring one team over the other.

Now excuse me while I Ferrari myself in private.

Once, when the teacher Dongshan and a monk were washing their bowls in a stream, they saw two crows fighting over a squirming frog. The monk asked, "Why does it always have to come down to this?"Dongshan replied, "It’s only for your benefit, Honored One.”

there are times when the perception is more real than the reality... Vettel DOTD goes a long way towards setting that perception.

Grossjean 69 laps on one set of tires, Ocon, Alonso, hell even Lance Stroll finally redeeming his short F1 career in his home GP. All better choices. Being a mod shouldn't prevent anyone from being a fan and having their biases, and any mod worth his salt should be able to separate their bias from their moderating duties, I think that's done well here. But there's no need to pull an Arrivabene on us and say that it's above your DNA.