Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Plus let's face it, China isn't exactly trustworthy with intellectual property. The country is the biggest player of industrial espionage and reverse engineering/copying products, and is well known for it in the auto industry. Would Honda want to risk sharing their best auto technology to a Chinese consortium?
That was seen as a problem when McLaren had Merc engines. But they never opened one and I guess the supplier can make sure none of the engines disappear. I even think that the engines are never the "property" of the team, but always a lease.
Going off the Ron Dennis/Honda ideas
... Would Honda be willing to supply a "Team China"? They're quite a proud Japanese company after all, and never underestimate the amount of nationalism involved in deals relating to China and Japan.
Plus let's face it, China isn't exactly trustworthy with intellectual property. The country is the biggest player of industrial espionage and reverse engineering/copying products, and is well known for it in the auto industry. Would Honda want to risk sharing their best auto technology to a Chinese consortium?
I find that quite offending tbh
Because it's Chinese it has to be something about stolen intellectual? Perhaps we should generalize other nationalities as well.
I think they could run rebadged Renault engines under the name of Volvo. Maybe Ho-Pin Tung enters F1 finally.
Going off the Ron Dennis/Honda ideas
... Would Honda be willing to supply a "Team China"? They're quite a proud Japanese company after all, and never underestimate the amount of nationalism involved in deals relating to China and Japan.
Plus let's face it, China isn't exactly trustworthy with intellectual property. The country is the biggest player of industrial espionage and reverse engineering/copying products, and is well known for it in the auto industry. Would Honda want to risk sharing their best auto technology to a Chinese consortium?
I find that quite offending tbh
Because it's Chinese it has to be something about stolen intellectual? Perhaps we should generalize other nationalities as well.
I think they could run rebadged Renault engines under the name of Volvo. Maybe Ho-Pin Tung enters F1 finally.
Well it is no generalisation, it is a fact that China does take intellectual property (by means of reverse engeneering) of other brands in exchange to let them enter the chinese market (which is also no small favour in return). And has it was stated it is quite known for that in the car market.
Some exemples:
"In March 1992 Chinese authorities found that Shenzhen reflective materials institute had copied 650,000 Microsoft Corporation holograms. The institute was found to be guilty of trademark infringement against Microsoft, but was fined a mere US $252. Losses to Microsoft as a result of the infringement are estimated at US $30 million."
just a preview of the chinese Weikerui V7, notice how it even copies the VW badge
the original:
So please before being all offended google the claims because sometimes they are accurate. That post is just completely accurate, no generalisation just a state of the situation. There was even no moral judging of the situation, claiming that breaching the IP would be something wrong to do.
Lol at all the discussions here going on attacking china and stuff and how because of some cheap imitation stuff, there should not be a F1 team, we'll ill be.
There's already a CHINESE F1 GRAND PRIX, in case you guys have forgotten, and it's been around quite a time. WTH guys.
If you're bothered so much by it, how about you boycot and don't watch anything of the Chinese GP.
Also, rather hypocritical. I'm 100% sure that EVERYBODY out here has equipment or clothing - or food for that matter - that is manufactured in china.
That includes television, dvd players, dvd discs, prints, shirts, shoes, computers, laptops, tablets (iphone ring a bell?), batteries, computer CHIPS, network cards,
monitors, telephones, etc. etc. etc.
if you're so offended by the nonsense about the car copying stuff, then don't be a hypocrit and do use other chinese stuff.
and as a matter of fact, this chinese 'copycat stuff' is actually not that bad or weird at all. All manufacturers rather imitate eachother. The C1, the Aygo, etc. etc., just a rebadged SAME car. look at the price tag there.
and that's also the point. you can buy a mini-faint-lookalike for a couple thousand bucks NEW. it's a car not build on the same quality or safety as those original versions, but the point is, nobody cares, they want a easily accesible, dirt cheap vehicle that also looks cool and fun. essentially, these chinese manufacturers simply slap on a 'skin' on their cars that look alike european models.
why don't they actually buy these cars? because they are rediculously expensive, that's why. We have little option over here as we get it shoved down or throat, but if you analyse it deeply, it's really criminal how much is charged AND added in taxes on cars.
China atleast is as wise as to point the finger to their heads and say, we wont be taking your cars, thank you, and build their own commuters which are FIT for the job they do. they're not as safe as their much more expensive european counterparts, but they do their job.
you could compare it to those ligier cars, those '45 kmph' cars. insane how much people pay for those dinky toys. just as safe or even less possibly.
the difference? they don't look like a weird mashup with veauxhall taillights, toyota headlights, mazda doors and nissan mirrors. they simply have a 'body' that imitates popular european vehicles.
nobody in their right mind mistakes one for another, let alone the quality. there are also big import blocks on those cars, so what's the deal, really.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
He asked a question based upon historical fact about the most secretive sport known to mankind, and a place that has an open culture of copycat products.
I wouldn't supply a team from there either, to be honest. Not with anything I didn't want my competition to learn about anyways...
Going off the Ron Dennis/Honda ideas
... Would Honda be willing to supply a "Team China"? They're quite a proud Japanese company after all, and never underestimate the amount of nationalism involved in deals relating to China and Japan.
Plus let's face it, China isn't exactly trustworthy with intellectual property. The country is the biggest player of industrial espionage and reverse engineering/copying products, and is well known for it in the auto industry. Would Honda want to risk sharing their best auto technology to a Chinese consortium?
I find that quite offending tbh
Because it's Chinese it has to be something about stolen intellectual? Perhaps we should generalize other nationalities as well.
I think they could run rebadged Renault engines under the name of Volvo. Maybe Ho-Pin Tung enters F1 finally.
Well it is no generalisation, it is a fact that China does take intellectual property (by means of reverse engeneering) of other brands in exchange to let them enter the chinese market (which is also no small favour in return). And has it was stated it is quite known for that in the car market.
Some exemples:
"In March 1992 Chinese authorities found that Shenzhen reflective materials institute had copied 650,000 Microsoft Corporation holograms. The institute was found to be guilty of trademark infringement against Microsoft, but was fined a mere US $252. Losses to Microsoft as a result of the infringement are estimated at US $30 million."
So please before being all offended google the claims because sometimes they are accurate. That post is just completely accurate, no generalisation just a state of the situation. There was even no moral judging of the situation, claiming that breaching the IP would be something wrong to do.
Yes, I know China copies, but do you really have to explicitly explain how bad it is? Of course it's bad! But why do you think China copies? Because China used to be poor and weak, so they envy what the Western world has. That's why they try to replicate things the Western make. Not all areas in China has been evenly well developed just like the images of Shanghai, Beijing, etc. you see nowadays. How the country is ran in the past and how the laws were written made copying possible till this day, but China nowadays isn't what it used to be. It has grown to a strong country that is slowly changing with time with an economy that has grown massively. Out with the old thinking and in with the new. That's the way it's molding the country (slowly). Ever wondered why the present generations have been attending the renowned universities or education systems around the world? Ever heard of learning from the best to get even better? Not everything is espionage and stolen in China.
I used to read somewhere in the papers that the best Whiskey in the world used to be made in Japan. Yes Japan, how is that even possible? Why not Scotland or Ireland? Because Japan sent some students to Scotland to study how Whiskey is actually made, then brought the knowledge (gained in Scotland) back to their country and finetuned it to perfection and thus made the best Whiskey in the world.
Didn't the US car manufacturers copy the way Toyota ran things, which made them so succesful? Why did they do that?
Times are changing. Copying in China is decreasing with present and future generations. Otherwise how would you explain this:
They have also made the fastest electric car in the world.
Oh yeah, must be stolen I guess.
So stop reminding me about: China copying stuff, China stealing stuff. We all know that from the past, so stop reminding me how poor China was in the past.
Would you confront a German what they did in the past? Of course not, you move on. We all know how horrible it was.
Going off the Ron Dennis/Honda ideas
... Would Honda be willing to supply a "Team China"? They're quite a proud Japanese company after all, and never underestimate the amount of nationalism involved in deals relating to China and Japan.
Plus let's face it, China isn't exactly trustworthy with intellectual property. The country is the biggest player of industrial espionage and reverse engineering/copying products, and is well known for it in the auto industry. Would Honda want to risk sharing their best auto technology to a Chinese consortium?
I find that quite offending tbh
Because it's Chinese it has to be something about stolen intellectual? Perhaps we should generalize other nationalities as well.
I think they could run rebadged Renault engines under the name of Volvo. Maybe Ho-Pin Tung enters F1 finally.
Well it is no generalisation, it is a fact that China does take intellectual property (by means of reverse engeneering) of other brands in exchange to let them enter the chinese market (which is also no small favour in return). And has it was stated it is quite known for that in the car market.
Some exemples:
"In March 1992 Chinese authorities found that Shenzhen reflective materials institute had copied 650,000 Microsoft Corporation holograms. The institute was found to be guilty of trademark infringement against Microsoft, but was fined a mere US $252. Losses to Microsoft as a result of the infringement are estimated at US $30 million."
So please before being all offended google the claims because sometimes they are accurate. That post is just completely accurate, no generalisation just a state of the situation. There was even no moral judging of the situation, claiming that breaching the IP would be something wrong to do.
look at the cars that came out of Japan 50 years ago .....
I don't think any team in F1 can steal a PU design tbh. I think that the PU's are delivered and maintained by special engineers from the engine distributor. For example, you think Red Bull can steal any Ferrari material from Toro Rosso and give it to Renault? I know it's a years old engine, but still...
Hey I never advocated I desliked China, I actually have a lot of problems with conventional IP law, I am just saying that China has a different way of dealing with that which I even said it was fair in a way. Companies also don't mind it cause they gain the ability to enter the Chinese market and that is all they care money, not the principal of copying or ideas. We also have a lot of copying in F1 and it's a good thing. It would be pretty awful if diffusers or venturi tunnels or shapes of wings were all behind IP. I am trying to bring as little of my opinion as possible I was just stating that IP law is different there. I also don't think they could copy anything of the engine, they won't even ever get a glimpse of internals.
If I was honda I would worry to commit to a deal and then down the line the team say sorry we don't need you anymore because they have made there own based off Honda's engine. If I was any of the established engine providers I would want a large chunk of money for any engine that I give to a Chinese team.
It doesn't happen here because all teams are based in Europe and if they copied someone's design they would get prosecuted. in China they won't so at best it would be F1 and the FIA to make a judgement.
I find that quite offending tbh
Because it's Chinese it has to be something about stolen intellectual? Perhaps we should generalize other nationalities as well.
Haas will find a team in an oil-rich country, bomb them, and take their team & resources. They'll then question why all the former employees are so angry.
McLaren will have historically hoovered up resources from all the other teams, and planted a big McLaren flag in their garages. They will now be clinging to past glory, and unable to accept their place in the 'new world'. Despite being reliant on foreign support & partnership, they will be increasingly agitated at the foreigners ruining everything for them and seek to end that partnership.
The McLaren one was supposed to be a UK/Colonization/Brexit anology - but its accidentally turned out fairly accurate.
I feel like I sparked a bit of commotion with my comment. I apologise for doing do and also apologise for any offence caused. I do however stand by the comment, it's a fact of China that many businesses and countries have to deal with, from cars to fighter jets.
I was just looking at it from the view that Formula 1 is notoriously protective when it comes to technology and what is and isn't shared. Understandable given many teams treat F1 as an exercise in R&D for technologies on top of the brand exposure for the larger international companies (its almost impossible to make money in f1 so no one owns a team for that).
China is a massive auto market, as is Asia in general, so it makes sense for them to get into the game if it leads to them understanding and catching up further on auto technology. But I think Honda especially would be reticent to join up with an unknown consortium and risk a country that would be a key market competitor acquiring Honda's work.
