2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Hamilton vs Vettel incident

[Big Mangalhit]

It stayed the same as there are still a handful trying to convince everyone that Vettel did nothing wrong and its Hamilton who should be punished. Thats why the conversation is stuck.

And there is a bunch of us who also claim that Vet should be punished further. That is why the conversation is stuck. An argument only happens because there is at least two opinions and one is never more correct than the other, just different points of view. So the blame of "keeping the discussion" is on both sides of the coin. And you are nobody is really right. Whether the punishment was too light or too severe or whatever is very subjective and nobody is really right or wrong. Put yourself on the others shoes and you would write exactly the same thing but the other way around.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

There is this article worth pondering upon.
Link -> Inside Line: Is Vettel the right man for Ferrari?

Selected quotes from the article.

Increasingly I find that the problem with Vettel is that if he does not have a race winning mount or if his rivals have a better car at their disposal, the German struggles to contain himself and a wicked frustration surfaces.

I am of the opinion that Mercedes have a substantial amount horses in reserve which they can dial into when the need arises. And in qualifying they were dialed up big time. Vettel and the Reds will have suspected that in Canada and in Baku it was obvious.

At this stage Ferrari appear capable of matching the pace of the silver cars in race conditions, but the gap has closed considerably and I would venture to say that if Mercedes’ upward mobility continues unhindered Ferrari will slip behind them very soon. And their ace driver knows this.

Until now Vettel’s toys have remained in the pram… now a race comes along where things do not go his way, which triggered the pent up fury which we witnessed in Baku. What transpired was a clear case of ‘road rage’ which would have him in deep trouble had he done it on a public road.

But at Baku Seb’s true colours emerged again, the car he is now peddling is no longer the best in the business. He is not the same guy he was at the start of the season, because he is starting to feel that Mercedes have the beating of the Ferrari, for sure in qualy but perhaps also in race mode too.

As charming as he can be, Vettel has a demon deep inside.

This is why you have to question if this is the kind of driver Ferrari need to succeed.

Mark Webber told Nigel Roebuck during an interview in 2009: “I can see why Seb’s popular. He’s normally polite, got a sense of humour, and smiles a lot, but if things go wrong… mate, when it comes to throwing toys out of the pram, I’ve never seen anyone like him.”

Back to the Mexico incident last year during an intense battle with Max Verstappen, Vettel went berserk over the radio to his engineer:

Vettel: Move, move. For f*ck sake. He’s a little f*cker… that’s what he is.
Vettel: I mean am I the only one or are you not seeing what I am seeing? He is just backing me up into Ricciardo? For f*ck sake.
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! F*ck off! Honestly. I mean honestly, I am going to hit someone. I think I have a puncture, rear left.
Ferrari: Tyres are fine, tyres are fine
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! He has to give me the position. End of the story.
Ferrari: Charlie says no.
Vettel: Well here’s a message for Charlie. F*ck off! Honestly, f*ck off.
At which point Arrivabene came on the radio and said firmly: “Sebastian calm down. They are under investigation. We know it is not fair, but calm down. Put your head down and we talk afterwards.”

And that is the key to the question of whether Vettel is the right guy for Ferrari. Arrivabene knows the best tonic for his team is a calm and collected driver in the cockpit and outside of it.

Clearly lessons were not learnt on that day by Vettel, the rage he showed that day last year surfaced again when he swerved into Hamilton in Baku.

At Schumi-era Ferrari there was no pent up anger and malice which he carried into the garage, Jean Todt and Ross Brawn would not indulge such behaviour, and never had to because that was not how Schumacher operated.

He was cool and collected which ensured that the team garage was devoid, almost oblivious, to his on-track indiscretions and the controversies they at times ignited. In other words it was a calm Red garage.

Schumacher and Vettel are perhaps similar on the surface, but deep down very different.

[Phil]

Wow, I somehow forgot or was not aware of the magnitude of that radio communication at Mexico. WTF.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

It stayed the same as there are still a handful trying to convince everyone that Vettel did nothing wrong and its Hamilton who should be punished. Thats why the conversation is stuck.

And there is a bunch of us who also claim that Vet should be punished further.

Rightly so. Because that is what the telemetry shows and that is why FIA is re-looking at the incident. Unlike those who think Vettel is innocent.

[NathanOlder]

Yes, most of us can see Ham did nothing wrong and the FIA as well as telemetry back US up. The people claiming vettel was right are only backed up by Vettel himself and he is about to be dragged down to the FIA for a telling off because he was very wrong.

[Sieper]

It stayed the same as there are still a handful trying to convince everyone that Vettel did nothing wrong and its Hamilton who should be punished. Thats why the conversation is stuck.

I believe that is not the point at all. I have seen (next to none) posts saying Vettel did nothing wrong, or even that Hamilton (if he did play a little trick on Vettel, which I believe he did, and which can even be deduced from the slight part of a second in the data shown where Hamilton applied some gas again (just after the grey dotted line, after the apex)) should be punished.

Both statements have hardly been made, maybe by one or two posters. In a civil conversation there is room to discuss the nuances of the situation, that does not mean "Vettel did nothing Wrong, nor Hamilton should be punished". That is a black/white point with which you are selling a lot of poster (a handfull in your words) short.

I think we can all agree (but likely I will be proven wrong) That Vettel was too close to Hamilton, Hamilton did not want him there and played a little trick (simply to keep him on his toes) Vettel failed to be on top of the situation and banged his rear, then went totally mad and hit Hamilton on purpose.

First situation can be called a racing incident, I guess? second situation was totally out of line.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

which I believe he did,

Other than I believe, she believes, they believe and some believe, you and folks who are trying to prove Hamilton did wrong, have nothing to offer against the data that is provided by teams to the FIA. [...]

In the absence of high quality telemetry data, that the teams possess and which we audiences ordinarily do not get to see, we generally use the video coverage available and the on board graphics (which are not as reliable as the telemetry data is). To negate the far more authentic data like telemetry and to base the arguments on less reliable on board videos, is insane to say the least.

[Andres125sx]

Is people really arguing about the speed Hamilton was carrying along T15 yet? For those who argue about this, please watch any other race, from F1 or any other category, with a SC period, and look closely to the race leader when theh SC switch its lights off. Then you´ll realize what Lewis did was appropiate, foreseeable, legal and morally correct.

Race leaders are usually way more aggresive when the SC switch its lights off so they can build a gap in front of them to push hard and not reach the SC line before the SC. Lewis maneouver was one of the most foreseable I´ve seen in F1 with a SC switching its lights off. Braking, and I mean using the brakes, not only not accelerating, is standard procedure when the SC switch its lights off. But I´ll give you a surprise here: braking is not a synonim of brake test. Leaders usually brake without the chaser hitting his tail, because that´s what drivers do

Here Lewis did not even brake, and people still claim it was a brake test...


It´s amazing how some people may distort reality to critizice perfectly normal things, only to justify his idol

[NathanOlder]

It stayed the same as there are still a handful trying to convince everyone that Vettel did nothing wrong and its Hamilton who should be punished. Thats why the conversation is stuck.

I believe that is not the point at all. I have seen (next to none) posts saying Vettel did nothing wrong, or even that Hamilton (if he did play a little trick on Vettel, which I believe he did, and which can even be deduced from the slight part of a second in the data shown where Hamilton applied some gas again (just after the grey dotted line, after the apex)) should be punished.

Both statements have hardly been made, maybe by one or two posters. In a civil conversation there is room to discuss the nuances of the situation, that does not mean "Vettel did nothing Wrong, nor Hamilton should be punished". That is a black/white point with which you are selling a lot of poster (a handfull in your words) short.

I think we can all agree (but likely I will be proven wrong) That Vettel was too close to Hamilton, Hamilton did not want him there and played a little trick (simply to keep him on his toes) Vettel failed to be on top of the situation and banged his rear, then went totally mad and hit Hamilton on purpose.

First situation can be called a racing incident, I guess? second situation was totally out of line.

You are my friend, one of the handful.

[marvin78]

It´s amazing how some people may distort reality to critizice perfectly normal things, only to justify his idol

You're right. But that works in both ways if you look at other incidents and their discussions. Fanboys and haters are ridiculous. Always.

[Sieper]

I am proud to be part of the handfull with a nuanced opinion, my friend the world is not black nor white, there are different sides to the story and if you choose to believe them or not, others will see that and are going to discuss them on an open forum.

[JonoNic]

I see that Motorsport.com are now sponsoring their articles regarding this incident. That should tell you everything about their agenda and the title race.

[Manoah2u]

Sorry I still haven't understand one thing: Vettel took 10 sec stop&go for which infraction? Hitting Hamilton behind or on side? If it's the first it's exaggerated, if it's the second I agree it's a light punishment. Nevertheless a stop&go during race and a race ban after some days looks like a bad patch to me

there was no mention of the penalty being due to 'causing a collision'.

there was mention of the incident between turn 15 and turn 16, and the stewards then gave him the 10 sec stop and go penalty with the message 'dangerous driving'.
there was NO mention of 'causing a collision'.

that means that you COULD argue that the 'dangerous driving' sanction was laid upon the fact vettel pulled up alongside lewis, and took BOTH HANDS off the steering wheel. after which, then, he hit lewis. intentionally or not - i have my opinion on that, but in the end, contact is contact.

[Mamba]

There is this article worth pondering upon.
Link -> Inside Line: Is Vettel the right man for Ferrari?

Selected quotes from the article.

Increasingly I find that the problem with Vettel is that if he does not have a race winning mount or if his rivals have a better car at their disposal, the German struggles to contain himself and a wicked frustration surfaces.

I am of the opinion that Mercedes have a substantial amount horses in reserve which they can dial into when the need arises. And in qualifying they were dialed up big time. Vettel and the Reds will have suspected that in Canada and in Baku it was obvious.

At this stage Ferrari appear capable of matching the pace of the silver cars in race conditions, but the gap has closed considerably and I would venture to say that if Mercedes’ upward mobility continues unhindered Ferrari will slip behind them very soon. And their ace driver knows this.

Until now Vettel’s toys have remained in the pram… now a race comes along where things do not go his way, which triggered the pent up fury which we witnessed in Baku. What transpired was a clear case of ‘road rage’ which would have him in deep trouble had he done it on a public road.

But at Baku Seb’s true colours emerged again, the car he is now peddling is no longer the best in the business. He is not the same guy he was at the start of the season, because he is starting to feel that Mercedes have the beating of the Ferrari, for sure in qualy but perhaps also in race mode too.

As charming as he can be, Vettel has a demon deep inside.

This is why you have to question if this is the kind of driver Ferrari need to succeed.

Mark Webber told Nigel Roebuck during an interview in 2009: “I can see why Seb’s popular. He’s normally polite, got a sense of humour, and smiles a lot, but if things go wrong… mate, when it comes to throwing toys out of the pram, I’ve never seen anyone like him.”

Back to the Mexico incident last year during an intense battle with Max Verstappen, Vettel went berserk over the radio to his engineer:

Vettel: Move, move. For f*ck sake. He’s a little f*cker… that’s what he is.
Vettel: I mean am I the only one or are you not seeing what I am seeing? He is just backing me up into Ricciardo? For f*ck sake.
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! F*ck off! Honestly. I mean honestly, I am going to hit someone. I think I have a puncture, rear left.
Ferrari: Tyres are fine, tyres are fine
Vettel: Here is a message for Charlie: F*ck off! He has to give me the position. End of the story.
Ferrari: Charlie says no.
Vettel: Well here’s a message for Charlie. F*ck off! Honestly, f*ck off.
At which point Arrivabene came on the radio and said firmly: “Sebastian calm down. They are under investigation. We know it is not fair, but calm down. Put your head down and we talk afterwards.”

And that is the key to the question of whether Vettel is the right guy for Ferrari. Arrivabene knows the best tonic for his team is a calm and collected driver in the cockpit and outside of it.

Clearly lessons were not learnt on that day by Vettel, the rage he showed that day last year surfaced again when he swerved into Hamilton in Baku.

At Schumi-era Ferrari there was no pent up anger and malice which he carried into the garage, Jean Todt and Ross Brawn would not indulge such behaviour, and never had to because that was not how Schumacher operated.

He was cool and collected which ensured that the team garage was devoid, almost oblivious, to his on-track indiscretions and the controversies they at times ignited. In other words it was a calm Red garage.

Schumacher and Vettel are perhaps similar on the surface, but deep down very different.

Nice article but what is the point of it? Name any other top driver who would go to Ferrari and "be the right man for Ferrari"? Sorry for going off-topic but this is getting hyped up in the media. Some guys complain about the PR-robot drivers and now that one intentionally or unintentionally bangs wheels in anger showing emotion all are up in arms. The incident has been dealt with in Baku. Fair or not, it has passed. If anything the FIA are a disgrace to the sport right now. Kvyat's double penalty in Canada because they got it wrong the first time and now they want to look into this one again because fans want a harsher penalty. They cannot seem to get it right. If they feel the penalty was not correct - admit so and improve for the next race. Let bygones be bygones. I am almost certain there would be no outrage had Hamilton won - then the penalty would be "okay". I am not happy about the incident but I really wish that everyone can enjoy the spice and move on to Austria.

MAMBA

[Phil]

For those that have missed it:

Official FIA Stewards Decision Doc45 - S.Vettel (PDF):
http://www.fia.com/file/59053/download?token=HWSIkw4f

Contents:

The Stewards, having received a report from the Race Director, examined video evidence, have
considered the following matter and determine the following:

No / Driver 5 - Sebastian Vettel
Competitor Scuderia Ferrari
Time 17:44
Session Race
Fact Car 5 collided with car 44 in Turn 16.
Offence Breach of Article 27.4 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.
Decision 10 Second Stop and Go penalty.
(3 penalty points awarded, 9 points total for the 12 month period)
Reason The Stewards examined video evidence which showed that car 5 drove alongside and then steered into car 44.

The Stewards decide this manoeuvre was deemed potentially dangerous.

For the record, this is what Article 27.4 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations refer to:

At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.

Ironically, I think Article 27.2 would be rather fitting too: Drivers must observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits at all times.


IMO, what is nails it for me is the wording under Reason of the Stewards report:

The Stewards examined video evidence which showed that car 5 drove alongside and then steered into car 44.

It is IMO worded as a deliberate act (car 5 drove alongside AND THEN steered...), so this point should not be in question as far as the penalty and any further consequences are concerned.

Instead of rehashing if Vettel was innocent or not or how much Hamilton was supposedly part of it, I think it would be far more interesting to discuss if Vettel will face further sanctions or not. I for one, am quite amazed at the magnitude of the radio message of the race in Mexico last year just posted a few posts further up... having read that, I somehow can't believe Vettel will get away with this.