2017 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg 7-9 Jul

[Vasconia]

PS: Hopefully no low class inflamatory questions from the journalists(tough thing to ask for, I know, as they need clicks and stuff) and bad behaviour from the drivers on the PC because I like a good fight on the track, not people bickering outside the car.

Don´t want to make an unfair generalization but some British journalists will make some pungent questions to Vettel, for sure.

[Phil]

Ferrari definitely have better aero than Mercedes or at least had until Barcelona because Vettel had quite more top speed despite his inferior PU and he was matching the Mercedes on Campsa so that shows the downforce/drag ratio is better on the Ferrari.

IMO that conclusion only holds true if the PU was in fact inferior. Ringo has been arguing for months that Ferrari have matched Mercedes (except for perhaps in qualifying) and the coincidence with the 2nd oil tank is too big to ignore. Then there are also the factor of the tires. The tires may be a bigger factor in slower corners (mechanical grip being key there), but don't underestimate the effect of not getting tires into the correct temperature range. Tires outside their ideal range will lead to less grip which will also have an effect on the cars performance through fast corners. In other words, you could have the car with the most efficient and effective downforce, but if the tires are not in the correct range, another car with less downforce could still achieve higher cornering speeds.

Then there is also the point that the Mercedes has been overweight for at least a few of the first races this season.

I'm not arguing that Ferrari does not have more downforce, they could well have more. I'm just saying that the conclusion is a difficult one to make because there are other factors that are a major influence as well (tires, weight and the PU).

The Mercedes has a very different aero philosophy than Ferrari. Ferrari has a lot of rake, the Mercedes aero platform is low rake, but has more underbody (long wheelbase). I am also starting to agree with Ringo that perhaps due to the 2nd oiltank, Ferrari was able to close the gap to Mercedes in outright performance, but the clarification by the FIA may have set them back again which is why we saw such a big difference in Baku.

[Just_a_fan]

Don´t want to make an unfair generalization but some British journalists will make some pungent questions to Vettel, for sure.

But you did make an unfair generalisation...

I would hope that all journalists will be asking Vettel difficult questions about his behavior in Baku. If the FIA won't punish, then at least make the driver reflect on his actions in a public forum.

[basti313]

There's no evidence Mercedes s burning oil .....

Please, we have a fuel flow restricted formula.
You have a defined efficiency, you have a defined amount of fuel. This gives the amount of power your PU produces.
You can not alter the efficiency on one lap, you can only change the amount of fuel to burn.
If you have a "mode" to produce 30HP more for a lap, than this is down to the juice and nothing else.

[Vasconia]

Don´t want to make an unfair generalization but some British journalists will make some pungent questions to Vettel, for sure.

But you did make an unfair generalisation...

I would hope that all journalists will be asking Vettel difficult questions about his behavior in Baku. If the FIA won't punish, then at least make the driver reflect on his actions in a public forum.

Ehem, I have said "SOME" which I think its not that unfair, specially because it has happened more than once(2007 comes to my mind as a pretty clear example).

Don´t get my wrong, journalists have the right to do it and I think they have to do it. The only limit should be that journalits should not become fanatics, which sadly has happened(not only in UK but also in Spain, I know some examples).

[NathanOlder]

Don´t want to make an unfair generalization but some British journalists will make some pungent questions to Vettel, for sure.

But you did make an unfair generalisation...

I would hope that all journalists will be asking Vettel difficult questions about his behavior in Baku. If the FIA won't punish, then at least make the driver reflect on his actions in a public forum.

Exactly, ask him the hardest most awkward question possible. Basically ask him the questions that 90% of this very forum wanted to know the answers to,

I am expecting Seb to be very apologetic throughout the whole conference and to make maybe a big apology at the very beginning aimed directly at Lewis.

[Phil]

Yes, i wouldnt expect too much from the drivers press conference. Vettel will swallow his pride and just apologize, as he will need to (as thanks to that, he has escaped a further penalty).

It would be much better to have one of the stewards there or Jean Todt himself so the media can drill him/them directly.

Unfortunately, i think the outcome has set a very bad presedent. If another driver does it, will they allow him to be penalized more severely than Vettel? How could they, under the sporting ethic that all shall be treated (and punished) equally?

[Juzh]

Ringo has been arguing for months that Ferrari have matched Mercedes (except for perhaps in qualifying)

And why would anyone believe him, especially after baku?

[ClarkBT11]

There's no evidence Mercedes s burning oil .....

Please, we have a fuel flow restricted formula.
You have a defined efficiency, you have a defined amount of fuel. This gives the amount of power your PU produces.
You can not alter the efficiency on one lap, you can only change the amount of fuel to burn.
If you have a "mode" to produce 30HP more for a lap, than this is down to the juice and nothing else.

When you have evidence instead of quoting must be the Juice(oil) I could take it seriously and learn.
Mercedes is still quicker in qualifying
without the additives in the oil. That's if they​ were even using the now illegal additives. I know there is the fact Vettel was using an old PU, I agree with some of the members that believe Ferrari and Mercedes are on par with each other in PU terms. If Mercedes does have an advantage it's just as likely:

Mercedes has better efficiency.

Mercedes has better engineering/reliability and can push their components further and longer.

Fuel and lubricants that are a good match for their engine and could be more advanced than other competitors.

The tyres are the biggest performance gain between Ferrari and Mercedes, stop blaming everyone​ else when Ferrari have been pulled for pushing the limits of the rules.

[Wynters]

I am expecting Seb to be very apologetic throughout the whole conference and to make maybe a big apology at the very beginning aimed directly at Lewis.

I suspect the opposite may well be the case. He's never done contrition well (which is not necessarily a bad thing) and he knows the FIA aren't going to do anything more to him.

Personally, I hope he gets asked one question about it, right at the start, and then the press move on. They will all have their quote about the past and, really, there's nothing to be gained by banging on about it. I hope Austria will prove sufficiently interesting to distract the press anyway, there's certainly quite a few interesting narratives that will continue here. Perez vs Ocon, Sainz vs Kvyat, Bottas vs Raikkonen, Wehrlein vs Ericsson are all threatening to boil over. Can Stroll build on his success in the last race now the pressure should have eased? Will Palmer continue to be the worst performing driver in an F1 car in recent memory? How is Verstappen coping under the pressure of performing significantly better than is teammate but not having the points to show for it? Just where is the Ferrari PU compared to the Merc?

There's plenty going on outside of the Merc/Ferrari battle and the Baku incident and it would be a shame for those two things to eclipse everything else.

[ClarkBT11]

Ringo has been arguing for months that Ferrari have matched Mercedes (except for perhaps in qualifying)

And why would anyone believe him, especially after baku?

How can you compare the two engines in Baku? Vettel's engine is near the end of it's life Vs Mercedes updated engine. And if Ferrari can't match Mercedes in qualifying with updates in the future that backs up the oil gate.

[Phil]

Ringo has been arguing for months that Ferrari have matched Mercedes (except for perhaps in qualifying)

And why would anyone believe him, especially after baku?

Because it has since been picked up on by AMuS which lends credibility to it. But yes, instead of referring to a fellow poster, perhaps I should have named AMuS instead.

The overall point is that Ferrari is probably much closer to Mercedes than many want to believe, probably as a result of a secondary oil being used to enhance the performance up until before Baku.

[santos]

Yes, i wouldnt expect too much from the drivers press conference. Vettel will swallow his pride and just apologize, as he will need to (as thanks to that, he has escaped a further penalty).

It would be much better to have one of the stewards there or Jean Todt himself so the media can drill him/them directly.

Unfortunately, i think the outcome has set a very bad presedent. If another driver does it, will they allow him to be penalized more severely than Vettel? How could they, under the sporting ethic that all shall be treated (and punished) equally?

Every case different. You can't judge every crime in the same way. Imagine that this weekend, someone does the same as Vettel, but the other driver crash and have to abandon the race. Of course the punishment won't be the same.

[Phil]

Every case different. You can't judge every crime in the same way. Imagine that this weekend, someone does the same as Vettel, but the other driver crash and have to abandon the race. Of course the punishment won't be the same.

That's an incredibly simplistic way to look at it. The incident was as it is because it was deemed to be 'deliberate'. If there was damage or not, is IMO secondary. One may be worse than the other, but the "intent" is what IMO is the biggest issue.

Joe Saward had an interesting take on it:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/07 ... n-penalty/

When all is said and done, the only conclusion one can reach is that this is an incredibly weak ruling – and a terrible precedent. If the reference about repetition applies to drivers other than Vettel (it is not clear from the wording), then it is clearly an unfair ruling. Why would Vettel be allowed to get away with something outrageous while other drivers are not allowed to? If the repetition reference applies only to Vettel, then any other driver who commits any such offence will be able to argue that there is a precedent for there to be no punishment – beyond some nebulous comunity service.

There may even be legal implications beyond the sport because punishing any future driver when Vettel was not punished in this case would not be fair and that brings into question whether this is good governance. In the Statement of Good Governance Principles, issued by the FIA in 2000, the federation commited itself to ensuring that procedures should be “fair, transparent, accessible and efficient”. In order to be fair to other drivers, the FIA cannot now punish them harshly – because of what it has done with Vettel. And if it does take action, it could open itself to civil action, and perhaps even claims that the federation has not properly upheld its role in the sport.

It would be only fair to ask what happens in the case it is repeated. The precedence is a 10-sec stop and go. Assuming the offender is in the points, it may be effective enough depending on the view point and if the sport deems this type of punishment to be adequate enough.

Assuming it is and it does happen again, would it be okay to punish the offender more than Vettel received?

There was a similar case in the aftermath of Rosberg setting a faster time under double waved yellows during QF last year under changing conditions by showing a momentary throttle-lift too that caused lots of discussion in the following post-race interview. I feel this is a more severe case, because it's about the ethic of what a driver should or should not do.

[Just_a_fan]

Every case different. You can't judge every crime in the same way. Imagine that this weekend, someone does the same as Vettel, but the other driver crash and have to abandon the race. Of course the punishment won't be the same.

No. The "crime" is the action - the deliberate crashing in to another car. The FIA have now shown that so long as the driver apologizes afterwards then a 10 second stop / go is the punishment he can expect.

Imagine the same situation in, say, Singapore by with Hamilton driving in to Vettel. Anything other than the same 10 second stop / go will be seen as the stewards / FIA interfering in the title.