2017 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg 7-9 Jul

[PlatinumZealot]

Someone can explain me why this is not a Jumpstart. Maybe the video is different from the reality.
https://twitter.com/darcyf1/status/884027507703402496
By the way i think if the stewards has yet said that is not a jump start, no further penalty are possible. For me it is a jump start.

I'm not sure why folks are getting wound up over this, Top fuel dragster drivers have reaction times measured in 100'ths of a second, Bottas reacted in a mere 2/10th's of a second.

No human can do below 0.1 seconds. The top fuel guys predict the lights. If the light were random you would see much slower reaction times.

A world class sprinter usually does 0.13 to 0.2 reaction time to the gun. But i agree that Bottas just happend to launch on "the "B" of the Bang" (according to Linford Christie!)

[djos]

No human can do below 0.1 seconds. The top fuel guys predict the lights. If the light were random you would see much slower reaction times.

A world class sprinter usually does 0.13 to 0.2 reaction time to the gun. But i agree that Bottas just happend to launch on "the "B" of the Bang" (according to Linford Christie!)

Good points, I'd forgotten about the way the Drag racing tree operates.

Still the video evidence from sky sports the timing loop 2/10ths reaction time. That is feasible.

[langwadt]

No human can do below 0.1 seconds. The top fuel guys predict the lights. If the light were random you would see much slower reaction times.

A world class sprinter usually does 0.13 to 0.2 reaction time to the gun. But i agree that Bottas just happend to launch on "the "B" of the Bang" (according to Linford Christie!)

Good points, I'd forgotten about the way the Drag racing tree operates.

Still the video evidence from sky sports the timing loop 2/10ths reaction time. That is feasible.

from the video evidence he clearly moved before the light but it doesn't matter because the rules say the transponder is what counts

[djos]

from the video evidence he clearly moved before the light but it doesn't matter because the rules say the transponder is what counts

The sky video supports the timing loop data - the NBC SN video is not trustworthy as I've already explained (due to 50hz to 60hz conversion).

[Vasconia]

Raikkonen is a proper No.2 now, much like Irvine and Barrichello were. And I bet he doesn't like it one bit. Bottas letting his faster team mate @Bahrain go to have a chance to catch Vettel doesn't compare to this in any shape or form. Ferrari used Raikkonen as a road block and nothing else... And people were complaining about Lewis asking the team to slow Bottas @ Baku so he could have a proper nab at Vettel. I wonder what they would like to say about Ferrari's tactics in Austria. On another note, it will be more meaningful for Hamilton if he wins the title without intra team help.

I don´t remember the race right now but Bottas let Hamilton pass so he has already received some help from the team.

[Vasconia]

Vettel said that he had no good balance in the first stint and it was way better in the second. And Bottas struggled with his tyres in the end.

Exactly, so its difficult to judge the real gap between both. I still think that Mercedes was faster but probably not so clear as we saw in the first stint.

Forgot to mention Ricciardo´s great pace. Rb seems to be closing the gap very fastly, at least if we speak about race pace.

How? And the gap was being closed in clean air!!

Bottas had problems with the tyres in the last stint. Vettel was not confortable with the car in the first one but I think Bottas had bigger problems with they tyres tan Vettel. Under normal conditions was an easy victory for the Finnish. Hamiton´s pace during the weekend was excellent until the Q3. Nothing tells me that Ferrari was faster than Mercedes in Austria.

[Vasconia]

So after Barcelona - the gap should under normal circumstances (dictated by pace, not luck) have been:
Vettel 104
Hamilton 98 (-6)
Bottas 63[+15] = 80 (-20)

After Baku:
Vettel 153 [+6] = 159
Hamilton 139 [+13] = 152 (-7)
Bottas 111[+15-6] = 120 (-32)

The normal circustances are one thing and reality,which really counts, is another one. Yes, I agree with the fact that Hamilton is usually faster, I also agree that under normal circunstances Hamilton should end the championship with more points than Bottas. But we don´t know what will happen and the metal state of a driver counts a lot, if Bottas continues to have great results he could do something big. Look at Stroll, he was being a disaster, after the pódium in Bakú now he looks like another driver. Hamilton is very strong but I consider him a little bit irregular, if he looses the concentration ande the momentum Bottas could beat him. He just needs to believe that he can do it.

On the other hand, I know that legally a team can use team orders, but if Bottas has real chances to win the championship it would morally not very aceptable if Mercedes favours Hamilton. They can do it of course but it won´t be very fair.

[Treble]

https://twitter.com/darcyf1/status/884027507703402496

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXdAPDKFR4I

I've watched this video now, and it very clearly looks different from the one above. I wonder whether someone's trying to manipulate people into thinking it was a jump start when it wasn't... Or more simply, the frame rates are different, so one shows the wheels move before the lights are out, while the other less fps doesn't.

Now you need some glasses, The sky uk video is not in slow motion as the first (i don't know why), but if you look closely the bottas tyres is pretty obvious the forward movement with red lights. Fia said that this movement is ok because is in the tolerance.
The problem is that until now nobody knows this tolerance. There is no rules about this "tolerance".

[alexx_88]

Now you need some glasses, The sky uk video is not in slow motion as the first (i don't know why), but if you look closely the bottas tyres is pretty obvious the forward movement with red lights. Fia said that this movement is ok because is in the tolerance.
The problem is that until now nobody knows this tolerance. There is no rules about this "tolerance".

The Sky video is played back frame by frame. It can't be slower motion than that.

The tolerance bit refers to the delay between the moment when the lights go out and the car starts moving. Does anyone know how does the FIA define a car that started moving and how they measure that?

[Treble]

Now you need some glasses, The sky uk video is not in slow motion as the first (i don't know why), but if you look closely the bottas tyres is pretty obvious the forward movement with red lights. Fia said that this movement is ok because is in the tolerance.
The problem is that until now nobody knows this tolerance. There is no rules about this "tolerance".

The Sky video is played back frame by frame. It can't be slower motion than that.

The tolerance bit refers to the delay between the moment when the lights go out and the car starts moving. Does anyone know how does the FIA define a car that started moving and how they measure that?

I watched it on the German Sky TV and it has way more frames. He did jumpstart. It was like 3 frames between the car starting and the lights going out.
"The FIA has explained, however, that some movement before the lights go out is allowed because of the need occasionally for drivers to make adjustments to their clutch in those crucial moments before the start.".
They made an "interpretation", i'm ok with that. It is the same with Vettel start in China. But YOU CAN'T SAY THAT BOTTAS DIDN'T MOVE BEFORE THE START.

[Juzh]

Raikkonen is a proper No.2 now, much like Irvine and Barrichello were. And I bet he doesn't like it one bit. Bottas letting his faster team mate @Bahrain go to have a chance to catch Vettel doesn't compare to this in any shape or form. Ferrari used Raikkonen as a road block and nothing else... And people were complaining about Lewis asking the team to slow Bottas @ Baku so he could have a proper nab at Vettel. I wonder what they would like to say about Ferrari's tactics in Austria. On another note, it will be more meaningful for Hamilton if he wins the title without intra team help.

Forgot spain already? Classic.

[alexx_88]

I watched it on the German Sky TV and it has way more frames. He did jumpstart. It was like 3 frames between the car starting and the lights going out.

The footage is provided by FOM. It can't have more frames on German TV and less on Sky.

[djos]

I watched it on the German Sky TV and it has way more frames. He did jumpstart. It was like 3 frames between the car starting and the lights going out.

The footage is provided by FOM. It can't have more frames on German TV and less on Sky.

Exactly, and being 50 FPS HD video means there is 2/10ths of a second delay in between each frame - we'd need the video captured at 200 FPS to provide 100ths of a second "resolution" and prove with finality if he jumped or didnt jump the start.

PS. Timing Computer says "No".

[WaikeCU]

I'm going to say something rather controversial, but it's my opinion:

The Championship is managed by management of F1. Despite what Seb did in Baku and how/when they penalized him is food for controversy. When Lewis had his headrest issue and needed to pit, Seb got his penalty at the exact moment when Lewis was pitting. I mean timing really?

Now, if Bottas didn't jumpstart, they show stats of Bottas vs Seb's reaction time that say Bottas didn't jump and the images have shown otherwise, then I'm starting to question the sport generally. The reason I think is that because Lewis is playing catch up all race and Bottas is leading Seb, F1 management wants to 'manage' the gap between Seb and Lewis, their stars, the faces of F1 this season. This made me think. Is it actually being fixed?

Some have reported that even though Lewis has had a grid penalty, Seb and Kimi will have theirs sooner or later, as they are on their last turbocharger. Something tells me their turbochargers will miraculously stay intact throughout the season.

We don't want to hand the Championship on a plate to Merc and Lewis or Bottas right?

F1 is now partly managed by Americans and Americans like to make a great show out of anything I believe. Surely the title must go down to the wire and be decided at the end of the season, favorably the final race.

[alexx_88]

Exactly, and being 50 FPS HD video means there is 2/10ths of a second delay in between each frame - we'd need the video captured at 200 FPS to provide 100ths of a second "resolution" and prove with finality if he jumped or didnt jump the start.

Not sure I agree on the maths there. They said his reaction time was 200ms, or 1/5 seconds. A frame at 50FPS takes 20ms, so his reaction time would've had to be 10 frames. HOWEVER, these intervals are tricky to measure if they don't have the right timing markers. For example, where is the 'lights out' trigger that they've counted from? If it's in Charlie's box, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 50-100ms delay from there to the lights, as I think the system is much more complex than your average home switch.

I'm no video expert, but presuming that what Sky have shown is accurate (no post processing codecs affecting it) I'd say that Bottas' real-life reaction time looks to be <1 frame, which is between 20 and 40ms, depending on the FPS.

It'd be really useful to get some insight into how they measure everything, what are their timing markers and how do they detect the car's movement.