Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[skoop]

Honda might pull the plug in October. If the enginge update doesn't deliver they're out. That's why McLaren is so quiet all of a sudden and Alonso wants to make his decision in October.

At least if you believe AMuS:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 58432.html

[Big Mangalhit]

Mercedes started development of the new PU in 2012.

Andy Cowell, head of HPP said they've started in the second half of 2011.

Sudenly, it was one year before

Now you should rephrase your accusations... Is Honda 2017 at similar level to Mercedes 2015?


Anycase this is comparing apples to oranges, as Mercedes didn´t have any target to beat, while Honda need to beat three manufacturers with more expertise, so the requirements, the pressure and the targets can´t be compared

Yes it is unfair to compare but I think it is easier for the second manufacturer to have a best engine than the first in the same timeframe. I mean if manufacturer A starts at 2000 and manufacturer B starts at 2003. I think it is easier for manufacturer B to have a better engine in 2008 than the 2005 engine from manufacturer A. Simply because the newer manufacturer can already have learnt something from the others mistakes from public sources (TC too small, pictures of the engine, layout etc) and can also poach some engineers and knowledge of the other engine. It is harder to pioneer

[etusch]

I hope they will decide to stay F1. I like to see Honda in F1 even they aren't successful ( of course see them succesfull would be great). F1 is not somewhere you can come and win in 3-4 year and then go. This is not way of winning. I am sure they know this better than me. I hope Honda will stay.

[ArcticWolfie]

For the ones in love with comparisons of spec 2 vs 3:

Vandoorne:

A lot of people were asking me about the 'Spec 3' engine, and how different it was from the 'Spec 2' used by Fernando.

To be honest, in terms of performance, there wasn't any significant difference from the cockpit and also data confirmed this feeling: there is still a lot of work to be done to fine-tune the settings before we can get the real benefit from it.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vand ... en-929899/

Read that yesterday, I read it like: they tuned down the engine for the moment till they get all parts working/reliable.

[Andres125sx]

Honda might pull the plug in October. If the enginge update doesn't deliver they're out. That's why McLaren is so quiet all of a sudden and Alonso wants to make his decision in October.

At least if you believe AMuS:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 58432.html

McLaren has been quite the whole sesson, and Alonso stated he´ll make his decision after the summer since the beginning of the season, so if those are the facts they´re using to make such a bold claim...

[Andres125sx]

Yes it is unfair to compare but I think it is easier for the second manufacturer to have a best engine than the first in the same timeframe. I mean if manufacturer A starts at 2000 and manufacturer B starts at 2003. I think it is easier for manufacturer B to have a better engine in 2008 than the 2005 engine from manufacturer A. Simply because the newer manufacturer can already have learnt something from the others mistakes from public sources (TC too small, pictures of the engine, layout etc) and can also poach some engineers and knowledge of the other engine. It is harder to pioneer

Except we´re talking about Honda, and they always pioneer, even if they´re not the first ones. That´s their politic wich I agree with, it may be harmful in the short term as they will suffer more problems at the beginning, but it will be good in the long term, as they´ll build a load of usefull expertise and will be able to explore new routes no other manufacturer has previously tested

Also, I think you´re overstimating what manufacturers confess to the media. That reason you´re exposing is exactly the reason why manufacturers are always extremelly vague when talking about his PU development, problems, failures... to not provide any insight to their rivals, so I don´t think that´s any real benefit

[jz11]

Don't know if anyone can decypher anything useful out of it, but this is from Today in Silverstone:

Picture by AMuS:
https://imgr4.auto-motor-und-sport.de/I ... 105276.jpg

I can decipher only that the blue and red of the drape, and even the aluminum color match pretty closely to colors used in your avatar, just a coincidence, right?

[ziggy]

Mercedes started development of the new PU in 2012.

Andy Cowell, head of HPP said they've started in the second half of 2011.

Sudenly, it was one year before

Now you should rephrase your accusations... Is Honda 2017 at similar level to Mercedes 2015?


Anycase this is comparing apples to oranges, as Mercedes didn´t have any target to beat, while Honda need to beat three manufacturers with more expertise, so the requirements, the pressure and the targets can´t be compared

Yes it is unfair to compare but I think it is easier for the second manufacturer to have a best engine than the first in the same timeframe. I mean if manufacturer A starts at 2000 and manufacturer B starts at 2003. I think it is easier for manufacturer B to have a better engine in 2008 than the 2005 engine from manufacturer A. Simply because the newer manufacturer can already have learnt something from the others mistakes from public sources (TC too small, pictures of the engine, layout etc) and can also poach some engineers and knowledge of the other engine. It is harder to pioneer

Just to clarify some things:

“Nikki Lauda recently told me that Mercedes started on their hybrid in 2007” begins Luca

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02/01/ ... ince-2007/

Still this isn't an excuse for Honda. They should have known better, where they were getting in to. That's what I'm saying all the time. This current technology is being developed for decades, not years. So if they were late to the party, it was at least 10 years ago. Pretty much around the time they quit F1 the last time...

A little offtopic: Porsche developed nearly the same tech and got it working. Again in pretty much the same time, 2014.

[ZakB]

Stop talking about advantages, because the technology is out there and could be bought by signing experts from Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault. They are in their 3rd year and it's still a big mess, there are no longer excuses.

[etusch]

Stop talking about advantages, because the technology is out there and could be bought by signing experts from Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault. They are in their 3rd year and it's still a big mess, there are no longer excuses.

Ferrari hired expert from Mercedes but you know, they are still a bit behind of merc in terms of Pu power. So it is not that easy. Restricted time to make what you want to make, simply cause it to be immature/unfinished.
It is Honda's way of working that they take consultancy to take knowledge but they do their job themselves. These are what we are talking about but we ( at least me ) didn't read anything like that from Honda as excuse of power deficit. I think they have to be consistant of staying in F1. Ups and downs are everywhere.

[Thunder]

Don't know if anyone can decypher anything useful out of it, but this is from Today in Silverstone:

Picture by AMuS:
https://imgr4.auto-motor-und-sport.de/I ... 105276.jpg

I can decipher only that the blue and red of the drape, and even the aluminum color match pretty closely to colors used in your avatar, just a coincidence, right?

Well no wonder everything explodes if Richard designed the PU:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g

and Sorry for OT.

[Big Mangalhit]

Just to clarify some things:

“Nikki Lauda recently told me that Mercedes started on their hybrid in 2007” begins Luca

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02/01/ ... ince-2007/

Still this isn't an excuse for Honda. They should have known better, where they were getting in to. That's what I'm saying all the time. This current technology is being developed for decades, not years. So if they were late to the party, it was at least 10 years ago. Pretty much around the time they quit F1 the last time...

A little offtopic: Porsche developed nearly the same tech and got it working. Again in pretty much the same time, 2014.

Really 2007? I had no idea. How defined were the rules for 2014 back in 2007? I thought they were drawn in 2011. I guess a bit before teams knew more or less were they should go. But before they are finalised teams can work a bit on it but have still no idea what to pursue completely.

2021 will have new engine rules but they are still not written I guess teams are already looking into that especially to then push their own agenda but they can really work too much on in until the rules are final. And we are already 3 seasons and a half away. 2007 to 2014 is 7 years difference.

Anybody can enlighten me a bit more on the timeframe of the drawing of 2014 PU rules?

[henry]

Stop talking about advantages, because the technology is out there and could be bought by signing experts from Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault. They are in their 3rd year and it's still a big mess, there are no longer excuses.

What do you think these experts are expert in? And how many of these experts do you think there are?

[wuzak]

Anybody can enlighten me a bit more on the timeframe of the drawing of 2014 PU rules?

IIRC discussions began in 2009 for a 2013 introduction.

[Craigy]

Anybody can enlighten me a bit more on the timeframe of the drawing of 2014 PU rules?

IIRC discussions began in 2009 for a 2013 introduction.

They were originally going to be inline-4's (this was Renault's preference - and to be fair to them, that's a road-car sized engine in much of the world).
Ferrari objected to the lack of cylinders, which is why they became V6's (although the same capacity), and the change to a V6 was settled in 2011 for a 2014 introduction. At the same time the initially-proposed rev-limit of 12K was lifted to 15K rpm, even though no F1 engine in the modern era will go there because of the fuel flow rate limit.

It's obvious to me that certain engine manufacturers were doing R&D on fuel-limited turbo engines for a long time before the rules were decided upon, so the dates of actual talks themselves are somewhat moot. If you're a manufacturer (eg. Mercedes) and you know you've cracked most of the hard stuff with very lean burning engines on little r&d models, you go into the meeting to decide the next engine formula with that in mind, and you make it happen.

This goes back to my last post about the political power between the engine manufacturers for the 2021+ formula. You can bet that the new formula (lighter engines, no more ERS-H) will play to someone's advantage.