2017 Sauber F1 Team - Ferrari

[wesley123]

It's a safe presumption that it will be. Vasseur made the correct decision.

No it's not. What would be a safe presumption would be that Honda is still the worst engine the next race. What happens over the winter period is anyones guess and Honda can make some very big gains.

And Longbow have coughed up the money for 2018 Ferrari engines. I really don't get where you are coming from here. Seems like you're willing to bet on Honda being better than the Ferrari 2018.

I believe I argumented that fairly well in a previous post of mine, a post you quoted

[RS200E]

It's a safe presumption that it will be. Vasseur made the correct decision.

No it's not. What would be a safe presumption would be that Honda is still the worst engine the next race. What happens over the winter period is anyones guess and Honda can make some very big gains.

And Longbow have coughed up the money for 2018 Ferrari engines. I really don't get where you are coming from here. Seems like you're willing to bet on Honda being better than the Ferrari 2018.

I believe I argumented that fairly well in a previous post of mine, a post you quoted

So you believe Sauber are better off with Honda engines instead of 2018 Ferrari engines for 2018? Yes or no answer.

[wesley123]

It's a safe presumption that it will be. Vasseur made the correct decision.

No it's not. What would be a safe presumption would be that Honda is still the worst engine the next race. What happens over the winter period is anyones guess and Honda can make some very big gains.

And Longbow have coughed up the money for 2018 Ferrari engines. I really don't get where you are coming from here. Seems like you're willing to bet on Honda being better than the Ferrari 2018.

I believe I argumented that fairly well in a previous post of mine, a post you quoted

So you believe Sauber are better off with Honda engines instead of 2018 Ferrari engines for 2018? Yes or no answer.

Again, something I have already answered. And yes, I do think they would be better off with the Honda engines, as was made very, very clear from a previous post.

[BanMeToo]

Long term view vs short term view I guess. That Honda will produce a better engine than Ferrari in 2018 is a long shot.

[Stormy]

No it's not. What would be a safe presumption would be that Honda is still the worst engine the next race. What happens over the winter period is anyones guess and Honda can make some very big gains.



I believe I argumented that fairly well in a previous post of mine, a post you quoted

So you believe Sauber are better off with Honda engines instead of 2018 Ferrari engines for 2018? Yes or no answer.

Again, something I have already answered. And yes, I do think they would be better off with the Honda engines, as was made very, very clear from a previous post.

Well, Sauber had a choice, it was either Honda or Ferrari. Now, Ferrari needs Sauber because of proxy votes when it comes to the new engine regulations. They really need them. That's why Sauber will get 2018 engines in 2018 rather than last year's engines. Ferrari just gave them a better deal. They might even get some technical support, who knows?

[RS200E]

No it's not. What would be a safe presumption would be that Honda is still the worst engine the next race. What happens over the winter period is anyones guess and Honda can make some very big gains.



I believe I argumented that fairly well in a previous post of mine, a post you quoted

So you believe Sauber are better off with Honda engines instead of 2018 Ferrari engines for 2018? Yes or no answer.

Again, something I have already answered. And yes, I do think they would be better off with the Honda engines, as was made very, very clear from a previous post.

I was giving you a chance to make some sense.

The answer is no. There's no way around that and that's why Sauber went with Ferrari in 2018. Linking your previous posts won't help as I would rather not have to read nonsense again.

[Stormy]

Honda was going to offer them technical support right? How do you know Ferrari will not? It's a completely new deal with new engines. A seat for Charles Leclerc is part of the deal as well i guess.

[wesley123]

I was giving you a chance to make some sense.

The answer is no. There's no way around that and that's why Sauber went with Ferrari in 2018. Linking your previous posts won't help as I would rather not have to read nonsense again.

Wait, so because I do not agree with you and your ability to predict the future, that means I'm talking nonsense? Well, okay then.

It's all great that you have your view, but you keep forgetting that a team is more than just an engine in the back. And it is completely pointless to have the great Ferrari engine, which certainly is better in 2018 spec than the Honda even though neither of those have been built yet, if you then cannot extract the maximum from it or properly develop the car. And whether you like it or not, that is where Sauber is at. They are backmarkers this year for a reason, and no, that reason isn't the 2016-spec Ferrari engine alone.

[wesley123]

Well, Sauber had a choice, it was either Honda or Ferrari. Now, Ferrari needs Sauber because of proxy votes when it comes to the new engine regulations. They really need them. That's why Sauber will get 2018 engines in 2018 rather than last year's engines. Ferrari just gave them a better deal. They might even get some technical support, who knows?

Good point regarding those votes.

I'm fairly certain the technical support will be less than with the Honda. Honda needs the mileage more than Ferrari would, as Ferrari already has their 2nd team. Honda is currently supplying two cars, compared to the other manufacturers which all supply six cars. This means that Honda would make approx. 3 times fewer kilometers than the other manufacturers, which is a huge disadvantage for them.

Honda would really benefit from the mileage they get, and Sauber would benefit from the technical support they'd get

[drunkf1fan]

Why are you certain the support will be less? Honda can't provide enough support to one team and in their current incarnation in F1 haven't supplied more than one team. They don't have anything setup to provide a second team yet while Ferrari have been supplying teams forever. Merc have one or even two engineers working with each team they supply engines for providing invaluable support on a constant basis.

Honda are in over their heads as it is and you think they are best placed to provide more support to Sauber than the other teams who already do so and are extremely experienced in doing so, the very notion of it is laughable. There is nothing at all that indicates Honda would do a better job. Sauber have also been using some form of Ferrari v6 hybrid since 2014, yet you think they'll lack experience in knowing how to set this engine up... I honestly don't know how you can even come up with that idea, Honda would be a completely unfamiliar engine that also is a mile behind the others currently and needs to make the biggest step to bridge the gap for next year when every attempt at a big jump in performance from Honda has resulted in at least half a season of nothing short of embarrassing failures and technical issues.

The chances that Honda have the worst engine next year would be to any sane person be in the 90+% range, along with no experience providing a second team. It's honestly crazy to suggest it would be better for Sauber to go with the only engine you can't trust at all rather than stick with the relationship and engines they are already extremely familiar with.

[NathanOlder]

@Wesley123

How did Sauber without full factory support, a low budget, and 2 poor drivers outscore Mclaren Honda with full factory support, 2 amazing world champion drivers in 2015 ???

Id put my house on the fact it was the lump in the back.

I totally get what your saying about the support and financial side of things, but there's no way a 2018 Sauber Honda would beat a 2018 Sauber Ferrari. There is more chance of the Ferrari engine crushing the Mercedes Engine next year than there is of the Honda beating the Ferrari PU.

Honda have made a mess every step of the way since the come back, and there is nothing really telling me that it will change anytime soon.

As for diminishing returns, people have been saying it every year about the Mercedes PU yet its still very very dominant. The customer teams prove that massively.

[Stormy]

I was giving you a chance to make some sense.

The answer is no. There's no way around that and that's why Sauber went with Ferrari in 2018. Linking your previous posts won't help as I would rather not have to read nonsense again.

Wait, so because I do not agree with you and your ability to predict the future, that means I'm talking nonsense? Well, okay then.

It's all great that you have your view, but you keep forgetting that a team is more than just an engine in the back. And it is completely pointless to have the great Ferrari engine, which certainly is better in 2018 spec than the Honda even though neither of those have been built yet, if you then cannot extract the maximum from it or properly develop the car. And whether you like it or not, that is where Sauber is at. They are backmarkers this year for a reason, and no, that reason isn't the 2016-spec Ferrari engine alone.

I don't know. It looks like Ferrari offered them everything that Honda did except better engines.Now, when Ferrari gives them new engines, it's in their interest for Sauber to be a bit more competitive. Haas is not really their second team. Ferrari doesn't have a second team. As soon as their contract expires, Haas can turn to another engine manufacturer. No guarantees they will stay with Ferrari. Ferrari can have a real second team only if they bring in a brand like Alfa or something. For the time being, the only team that has a real second team is Red Bull.

[RS200E]

I was giving you a chance to make some sense.

The answer is no. There's no way around that and that's why Sauber went with Ferrari in 2018. Linking your previous posts won't help as I would rather not have to read nonsense again.

Wait, so because I do not agree with you and your ability to predict the future, that means I'm talking nonsense? Well, okay then.

It's all great that you have your view, but you keep forgetting that a team is more than just an engine in the back. And it is completely pointless to have the great Ferrari engine, which certainly is better in 2018 spec than the Honda even though neither of those have been built yet, if you then cannot extract the maximum from it or properly develop the car. And whether you like it or not, that is where Sauber is at. They are backmarkers this year for a reason, and no, that reason isn't the 2016-spec Ferrari engine alone.

You clearly have an agenda on this. Honda fan by any chance? As a McLaren fan myself and knowing the benefits for McLaren and Honda if Sauber went with Honda, I can still see that Ferrari is the better choice. It's not really about my personal view, it's about what's best for Sauber which they have confirmed by their choice for 2018.

Contrary to what blind faith you put in Honda, the Sauber team has a realistic view of what Honda can deliver in 2018.

You're the one acting like you have a crystal ball, arguing against the decision of an established F1 team, saying they should basically put faith in a Honda that has shown nothing but failure thus far. McLaren already made the mistake for everyone to see.

[Stormy]

To be honest, if Ferrari didn't offer them a current PU, i would've understand if they went with Honda. But Ferrari obviously needs them as a customer so they offered Sauber a deal they can't refuse.

[Sniffit]

To be honest, if Ferrari didn't offer them a current PU, i would've understand if they went with Honda. But Ferrari obviously needs them as a customer so they offered Sauber a deal they can't refuse.

To be fair I think it's the opposite, I wouldn't be surprised if Sauber gave Ferrari an offer they couldn't refuse in other words, a big bag of gold.