OMG! Why haven't I seen this interview posted before!?!?

[checkered]

OMG! Why haven't I seen this interview posted before!?!?

I don't

know; because you didn't look hard enough? "Another reason to suggest Max Mosley should quit? (F1T thread)", original interview released on BBC's Hard Talk website Oct. 31st, 2007. There's also quite a wide-ranging selection of topics to choose from (regarding the various incredibilities touched upon here), the contents of which (without exaggeration) easily equal several books' worth of text. The issue has been covered from fans', legal, technical, moral and other perspectives. There's still some pressure to be released from the boiler of this case, but re-heating some long gone issue has the same passive-aggressive flavour to it as returning home to find one's partner steaming more than the sorry lukewarm plate left standing on the table.

[mep]

Last year after Kimis Melbourne victoy there was Norbert Haug
(quite a high animal at McLaren Mercedes) on german TV telling that
they have quite good informations that Ferrari is using something illegal.

So he propably knowed the Ferrari documents.
And a flexi floor is not easy to detect.
Ferrari propably even wondered how they could figured that out and started
to find a answer to this.

[Rob W]

McLaren got punished because as an organisation although they did not know what was going on they should have, where as Alonso did know and did use the information but did not get punished...

We really don't need to go down this path of discussion again. It is also well established that others in McLaren did know about the documents. And you could argue that Hamilton, by virtue of any improvements which came about from any mods/improvements to the car, was therefore also technically cheating every time he raced the car thereafter.

Moreso, the contribution to the overall spygate saga (at the McLaren end) would be something like:

Coulghan/tech dept- 99%
De La Rosa/Alonso- 1%

People seem to hinge on the Alonso aspect purely because he was the most public figure involved and the only one involved actually driving a car in the competition. Get over it. Every single driver on the grid would openly accept info which improved their lot if they thought they weren't going to get caught.

I'm sure Alonso isn't a saint, but please - some perspective. He was almost nothing in the scheme of things and scope of the whole saga.

R

[Rob W]

I still can not see how that you can punish the team because they had the information and did know about it, but not punish someone who knew they had spy data and actively went out of his way to use it.

This one is really simple. They offered the drivers immunity in return for coming completely clean over any involvement. A simple, practical offer which is common in many legal systems.

R

[Conceptual]

I'm sorry that it offends you so much Checkered, by all means, dont hurt yourself anymore by reading on this thread. I just checked, and there are several other posts that could use your input, so please dont waste your time here.

Anyways, I dont think there really is much room for discussion, as this video was very good at showing. Max knows ALL ASPECTS first hand. He is the sole integrator of all perspectives, so I believe that what he says due to the relentless questioning of the interviewer is the absolute best description of the entire situation. IT answered every question I had on the subject, and i am sorry I didnt see it sooner...

Checkered, I'll be sure to subscribe to the Google crawler results for F1, and read every entry that it contains. Then, maybe then, can I know as much as you.

Thanks!

Chris

[Spencifer_Murphy]

We are not even 2 races into a new season and mclaren creates yet again controversy and gains a penalty.

No they have not been punished enough by Mosley imo. They have learned nothing. They keep on dragging our sport through the gutter. When will it end?

P_O_L how exactly have Mclaren cheated this year?

And please don't tell me you are reffering to the Q3 blocking incident at Sepang?

If you are then everyone else on the track except for Alonso & Nick (and anybody else on a flyer - which is very few if anyone else at all) are almost just as bad.

The Mclaren drivers slowed down to conserve fuel at the end of qualifying - name one team who doesn't do that. To me its a safety issue which is there because the rules do not prevent this from happening (Cars circulating slowly to conserve fuel while others are completing their last lap). It's something I think the FIA need to look at. I think maybe a rule that stipulates that in & out laps must be no more than (picking a random number here) 120% of their fastest lap. This would remove this blatent safety issue.

The exception here (and the reason Mclaren got penalised) is that at Sepang the Mclaren drivers were the only two who were on the racing line as Nick & Alonso passed. This is clearly sheer thoughtlessness on their part and they got penalised for it (rightly too I think - god knows why they were on the racing line when other cars are circulating at speed - maybe they didn't think others were, but that's a silly thing to do).

They desreved the penalty because they caused a blockage for Nick & Fernando, but they were not activly trying to cheat or block other drivers. Why would they do that in such a situation - so their cars can get rammed up the back by a BMW traveling at 130MPH more than them? Just to give their mechanics a hard night rebuilding them and thus compromising their race further? Highly unlikely.

I know you don't like Mclaren, no1 is saying you must or anything. But its so unlikely that they were deliberately trying to block, the Mclaren acrs were part of a (i think) 4 car pack at that point of the track - but onoly they were on the racing line. They do deserve the penalty, but they are hardly trying to cheat or drag our sport through the dirt. Neither Nick or Fernando complained about them "cheating" they complained that their lap time was compromised - and rightly so.

[P_O_L]

I think you are a bit carried away. I never said they where cheating. Perhaps in spa 98 but not this time, i think.

It was stupidity combined with arrogance. Creating a hugely dangerous situation for someone who was on a lap better than both mclarens did.

I said they are dragging our sport through the gutter with their constant negative sour grape sporting attitude and lack of ethics. The spygate, the accusation Williams was cheating and should be excluded, the nagging at the FIA office about floors and dampers of fellow competitors ..they dont do one jot for the reputation of mclaren or our sport in general. Now they get fined again and brought back 5 places.

Again, if as team like mclaren cant guide their drivers to stay off the racing line it makes them look very silly. And i firmly believe in the line of this thread, that they have not been punished enough by the FIA. They should keep a low profile but it appears they dont give a damn. About the sport, the fellow competitors, the fans, the public image, the sponsors. Nothing. And not even 2 races into 2008 i find that a shame.

[DaveKillens]

Sheesh, and I'm weary of the constant whining and accusations against McLaren. I'm no fan of Ron Dennis, but this is wearisome.

[Steven]

I think you are a bit carried away. I never said they where cheating. Perhaps in spa 98 but not this time, i think.

It was stupidity combined with arrogance. Creating a hugely dangerous situation for someone who was on a lap better than both mclarens did.

I said they are dragging our sport through the gutter with their constant negative sour grape sporting attitude and lack of ethics. The spygate, the accusation Williams was cheating and should be excluded, the nagging at the FIA office about floors and dampers of fellow competitors ..they dont do one jot for the reputation of mclaren or our sport in general. Now they get fined again and brought back 5 places.

Again, if as team like mclaren cant guide their drivers to stay off the racing line it makes them look very silly. And i firmly believe in the line of this thread, that they have not been punished enough by the FIA. They should keep a low profile but it appears they dont give a damn. About the sport, the fellow competitors, the fans, the public image, the sponsors. Nothing. And not even 2 races into 2008 i find that a shame.

I think that is a bit harsh. It was to me just a driver's mistake, as they can expect others to still be in their quick laps. The drivers are professionals and it is not really up to the team to hold their hands all the way through the sessions.
A 5 place penalty was actually what could be expected and is rather fair from my point of view. Any driver could make that mistake, and I think it will be very unlikely they like to be 5 places down

[P_O_L]

It is just my opinion but it seems some people get rather touchy when you express your feelings about current events surrounding mclaren. I thought the spygate was burried but someone felt the need to post another thread about it again. If someone links those events to yet another penalty for mclaren suddenly its not nice?

Bottom line is they get fined again over something they could and should have avoided. Im gonna leave it at that.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

I think you are a bit carried away.

Sorry mate, that was my mistake. I misunderstood your post.

I agree about the stupidity. Somebody on that pitwall (if not the drivers themselves) should have been on the radios saying to stay off the racing line - they always seem to feel the need to remind the drivers to slow down and conserve fuel, and to pick up rubber on the tyres after the race so why then not say after the quali laps:

"Okay guys that was a [lap time] good job, now slow down to conserve fuel for tomorrow, and don't forget to stay off the racing line, there are other guys out there on a hotlap."

The spygate, the accusation Williams was cheating and should be excluded, the nagging at the FIA office about floors and dampers of fellow competitors ..they dont do one jot for the reputation of mclaren or our sport in general. Now they get fined again and brought back 5 places.

I do understand what your getting at there, Mclaren always seem to be at the front of controversy int he sport, but I think most of it is perception, because they're so big - just like Ferrari actually, there's always a scandal there lol. Put it this way: No body really cares too much when BMW is said to have a flexy rear wing, but when people think Ferrari's fron wing is flexing (Sepang 2006) all hell breaks loose. Likewise when they first introduced the wheel frisbees.

Mclaren aren't the only ones to have that sort of negative publicity...lets not forget renault in 2006 - (okay I know its not on the scale of spygate but...) they had the whole mass damper debaticle, and Fernando got a grid penalty for blocking Massa at the italian GP (coincidence - I think not).

End of the day in 21st century F1, the top two teams have to take controvery as part of running in title contention.

[ben_watkins]

Have you read this?

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx ... 8&PO=42128

They did warn Hamilton and Kovi - but they saw cars all over the place in their mirrors and thought it was dangerous to move over.

They accept they impeded the flying laps

However it is the new rules/regs that are flawed. ALL teams agree they are not right. They need to be changed for safety reasons and I'm sure they will be changed before too long..

[Spencifer_Murphy]

No I hadn't read that before, but tbh Whitmarsh's comments seems like bull to me.

"We warned our drivers to keep out of the way, so they were aware of faster cars approaching, but in fairness Heikki looked in his mirrors and saw a number of cars, some to the left and some to the right," Whitmarsh said.

"He could see a BMW that had switched to the right and had to make an instant decision about whether or not it was on a quick lap.

"He decided it would be dangerous to cut across the track if the car behind had a possible closing speed of about 200kph (125mph).

Well I'm sorry but if they'd stayed off the racing line in the first place he wouldn't have had to make this split second decision. The incident happened ha;f way around the lap, from the moment they crossed that S/F line they should have been told (or just dont it anyway) to move off of the racing line, there is no need to be there halfway around the lap, so they should have been in this "lost at sea" situation in the first place. It all sounds like a bunch of PR rubbish to me, they didn't tell the drivers, and the drivers are also have to take some blame because they know the rules also, and they didn't move over.

The penalty is justified, and like I said in my previous post, a rule needs to be imposed to prevent these super-slow in-laps. Racing is dangerous yes, but having cars circulate at such slow speeds with other high speed cars qualifying on track is frankly unnessecaryly risky.

[Rob W]

Well I'm sorry but if they'd stayed off the racing line in the first place he wouldn't have had to make this split second decision. The incident happened ha;f way around the lap..

In their defense a little bit - the pit wall can't see much more than we can on TV so they're not quite like spotters in NASCAR. Also, even attempting to stay clear of the racing line a driver will still have to cross over the racing line on practically every corner of the lap. Likewise, they have a hard enough time seeing other cars in their mirrors when doing similar speeds during races so when the speed differential is over 150kmh it must be nearly impossible to keep it all together.

The McLaren drivers were wrong for sure but I think, even if they had done everything to position their cars off the racing line, it was as much their slow speed which caught the others out. That aspect of in-laps in Q3 should be addressed imo.

R

[ben_watkins]

But what about their sophisticated GPS car positioning system that they use? They would have seen from that display the two hot lap cars, their position relative to the team cars and been able to advise accordingly..