2017 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 28-30 July

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So what if you say this before a race:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ricc ... 36107/?s=1

End up saying this after a race:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ricc ... sh-936544/

Sorry , you never planned to give anyone space as well not even your team mate who qualified before you
Typical Red Bull drivers , trying to safe their seat or get replaced.

I wont miss that disgusting shoe drinking stuff anyway , so immature

There is a difference between aggressive driving, and making a silly mistake due to being unwilling to see when you lost a position.

And the shoe is irrelevant here.

Even if it was a stupid mistake , still the 2nd driver of that team of the day tried to make a move as soon as he could as announced by him.

[zeus2]

Ferrari are damned by some no matter what they do or not do.
A certain British driver is praised by some no matter what he does or does not do, as British drivers always tend to.
The fault in the presented logic is that the certain British driver and his team are being praised in this case for the exact same reason Ferrari is being damned:
If Ferrari should have issued team orders to allow their 2nd placed driver (who is not challenging for the WDC) overtake their 1st placed driver (who is leading the WDC but looks far from certain of having it comfortably in the bag),
at the same time when Merc's 'equally treated' drivers (who both challenge for the WDC, admittedly with the British one seemingly in with a better chance),
shouldn't one expect that Merc should have avoided issuing the order for the first swap, choosing to favour their 'equally treated' Finnish driver by giving him more opportunities to overtake his fellow compatriot, or capitalise on a mistake?
In hindsight, Ferrari were proven right, as their intended plan worked out since neither Merc was able to overtake Kimi
And Merc were proven wrong, since the British God was equally unable to overtake Kimi as the Finnish 'not number 2 driver'
Gap times mean little in a track where overtaking is so hard unless you are Alonso or have a 3 sec/lap advantage, Bottas might have as well thought to keep a safe distance and save his tires in the chance 2 of the 3 leaders crashed into each other the way the Red Bulls did
Or simply knew very well that since he couldn't overtake, the other car would not be able to either...
To view this the other way around, had Vettel allowed Kimi to pass in the lead, but managed to keep the Mercs behind until the last corner, would all you guys now crying foul have expected Kimi to give the 1st place back and then praise him and Ferrari for their sportsmanship?

Finally, well said. I was sitting back, flabbergasted, thinking "wait a minute, are people actually complaining about ferrari not issuing team orders, but happy with mercs doing so? even going so far as to make out that mercs are some kind of beacon of honor and fair play?" If there was any unfairness in the whole affair, it was bottas being made to give way to hamilton as he has every chance to win the championship as opposed to kimi who has a minimal chance. Thankfully bottas was given the place back. But had hamilton kept the place some people would have found a way to justify that and still criticise ferrari. I think all this outrage at ferrari for not letting kimi take the win has less to do with kimi's well being and more to do with the 7 extra points that seb gained on a certain british driver by winning. And by the way hamilton did not do any favours to bottas by letting him through as he wouldn't have had to give the place back if bottas didn't let him through in the first place. Some of the arguments being put forward make absolutely no logical sense

[Treble]

I guess you're right because when Ricciardo beats you so soundly, you run and cower in fear under mamma's red skirt.

Umm if Vettel is not so good as a pilot and Merc is the best team on the grid (as you always say) why the best pilot ever (as you always say) Hamilton is not in the first position?

It is not a secret Toto wants Vettel at Mercedes, we don't know when but it is pretty clear that Vettel didn't sign yet because he wants to see what happens at Mercedes. I always thought that Ham is "more champion" than Vettel but he is also more discontinuous. At the end of the game are almost equal.

I've never heard Toto say that [...]

Ok, so maybe Vettel didn't sign yet because he waits for McHonda? Really i don't see many alternatives.Going back to RedBull? No Way. Mercedes has always wanted a German pilot, they had Schumacher and then Rosberg. Hulkenberg had a chance but unfortunately he signed for Renault before Rosberg resigned. Vettel with Mercedes is the dream of every german....

[Treble]

Ferrari are damned by some no matter what they do or not do.
A certain British driver is praised by some no matter what he does or does not do, as British drivers always tend to.
The fault in the presented logic is that the certain British driver and his team are being praised in this case for the exact same reason Ferrari is being damned:
If Ferrari should have issued team orders to allow their 2nd placed driver (who is not challenging for the WDC) overtake their 1st placed driver (who is leading the WDC but looks far from certain of having it comfortably in the bag),
at the same time when Merc's 'equally treated' drivers (who both challenge for the WDC, admittedly with the British one seemingly in with a better chance),
shouldn't one expect that Merc should have avoided issuing the order for the first swap, choosing to favour their 'equally treated' Finnish driver by giving him more opportunities to overtake his fellow compatriot, or capitalise on a mistake?
In hindsight, Ferrari were proven right, as their intended plan worked out since neither Merc was able to overtake Kimi
And Merc were proven wrong, since the British God was equally unable to overtake Kimi as the Finnish 'not number 2 driver'
Gap times mean little in a track where overtaking is so hard unless you are Alonso or have a 3 sec/lap advantage, Bottas might have as well thought to keep a safe distance and save his tires in the chance 2 of the 3 leaders crashed into each other the way the Red Bulls did
Or simply knew very well that since he couldn't overtake, the other car would not be able to either...
To view this the other way around, had Vettel allowed Kimi to pass in the lead, but managed to keep the Mercs behind until the last corner, would all you guys now crying foul have expected Kimi to give the 1st place back and then praise him and Ferrari for their sportsmanship?

+1

[PlatinumZealot]

What do you misfits think of Carlos Sainz Vs Kvyat here?

[Phil]

And by the way hamilton did not do any favours to bottas by letting him through as he wouldn't have had to give the place back if bottas didn't let him through in the first place. Some of the arguments being put forward make absolutely no logical sense

Arguably, the Mercedes-"team order" robbed us of a fairer fight between Hamilton and Bottas. My issue with it, is that Hamilton did not treat his team-mate as a "hostile". If it was clear from the onset that the positions would not be swapped, Lewis would have treated the whole battle different. He would have driven more aggressive, perhaps using the last 35 laps to drop back, nurse his tires, to attempt a more aggressive attempt later on.

Would Hamilton have gotten by? Doubtful. But I bet at the very least, Bottas would have felt 100 times better standing on that podium if he had actually gotten the chance to defend it properly. So IMO the biggest farce was Hamilton actually conceding a 5-7 second gap to let his team-mate by within the last 200m so that he could sip that wonderful expensive champagne yet feel stupidly awkward knowing full well it wasn't his pace that put him there, but the team-order that avoided us otherwise witnessing a great battle between the two.

And no, I do not think Hamilton nor Mercedes needed to swap the positions back. IMO they committed a bigger farce by actually doing that, even if the sportsmanship that both Mercedes, Bottas and Hamilton showed are admirable. Mercedes throughout the last 4 years at least has always made it very clear they are fighting for the WCC just as much as the WDC. The team-result is the priority. Bottas, just as Rosberg in Monaco '16, was lacking pace. They gave him every opportunity to "speed up" and do what was expected. He didn't, he couldn't - whatever - so the team decided to give the faster guy behind the opportunity. That guy then showed how much quicker he could drive and pulled out a significant gap (5-7 seconds). Heck, Bottas was even under pressure from Max in the final stages.

As a viewer, I find it way more appalling for a team to influence the positions of their drivers when one has to practically pull over to let the other one through, opposed to simply wanting the faster driver ahead (after giving more than enough time to the other driver to speed up) to better their prospects of the race.

[Phil]

Ok, so maybe Vettel didn't sign yet because he waits for McHonda? Really i don't see many alternatives.Going back to RedBull? No Way. Mercedes has always wanted a German pilot, they had Schumacher and then Rosberg. Hulkenberg had a chance but unfortunately he signed for Renault before Rosberg resigned. Vettel with Mercedes is the dream of every german....

This is all in the wrong topic, but I'll bite:

Bottas is managed by Toto, so I don't quite see the logic. I'm also rather doubtful Vettel wants to go to Mercedes, considering he has a great atmosphere at Ferrari, is the defacto team-leader. Who wouldn't want that? To make matters even better - that Ferrari is a championship contender this year.

I personally think that Ferrari wants to sign Vettel, but that 2nd seat may be a bit of a headache. If Ferrari lets go Kimi and is really considering a better driver for that second seat, then that "team leader role" is definitely in doubt, especially if that driver they are considering would be Fernando Alonso. So perhaps Mercedes who is happy to take its time until later in the year is convenient for Vettel to keep Ferrari holding out a little longer until they decide if they are going to keep Kimi for one more year. If Ferrari considers Alonso or another strong driver, then Vettel may be happy to leave for Merceres (assuming he'd have a seat there) or at least threaten to do so.

Even so, I'm not sure Vettel wants to win championships above all else. I think being in a team you enjoy and has a great atmosphere is just as important for a driver to perform at his best. I'm a bit doubtful he'll get that kind of environment at Mercedes, especially if Hamilton is on the other side of that garage. Similarly to if he stays at Ferrari and Ferrari resigns Alonso...

[Phil]

Finally, well said. I was sitting back, flabbergasted, thinking "wait a minute, are people actually complaining about ferrari not issuing team orders, but happy with mercs doing so?

So it's a team-order when a team openly tells both their drivers to swap positions, but it's not a "team-order" when a team is doing everything possible to protect their one driver in the lead from their 2nd driver who is evidently faster from passing him?



AMuS already has the analysis that to pit Kimi a lap after Vettel was bad, as Kimi had a lot of pace on that tire and had he stayed out just a lap longer, might have actually gotten ahead of Vettel. Kimi even came on the radio after the pitstop questioning the timing of that stop, as he didn't understand it, even if it was quite evident to the rest of the world as to what was going on...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 97159.html

[zeus2]

Finally, well said. I was sitting back, flabbergasted, thinking "wait a minute, are people actually complaining about ferrari not issuing team orders, but happy with mercs doing so?

So it's a team-order when a team openly tells both their drivers to swap positions, but it's not a "team-order" when a team is doing everything possible to protect their one driver in the lead from their 2nd driver who is evidently faster from passing him?



AMuS already has the analysis that to pit Kimi a lap after Vettel was bad, as Kimi had a lot of pace on that tire and had he stayed out just a lap longer, might have actually gotten ahead of Vettel. Kimi even came on the radio after the pitstop questioning the timing of that stop, as he didn't understand it, even if it was quite evident to the rest of the world as to what was going on...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 97159.html

Agree with you about the potential bottas and hamilton battle. As far as team orders are concerned, Kimi never asked to be let through as he himself specifically pointed out in the interview with sky when the reporter tried to sneakily suggest that he did. So if kimi didn't ask to be let through, then it would have been team orders if ferrari ordered seb to let him through, which they didn't. As for bringing kimi in when they did, kimi did 1.23.7 on his in lap and a 1.22.7 on the lap prior to his in lap (the lap seb pitted), while the mercs were doing high 1.21's and low 1.22's on their fresh rubber, so you can understand why ferrari were concerned and pitted him, afterall they were racing the mercs first. Kimi pretty much acknowledged that the team had the bigger picture and accepted it later in his ferrari post race comments.

[PlatinumZealot]

Not much to discuss futher really. Kimi's sole Job is to finish behind Vettel if he can't be two places ahead of him.

[Zynerji]

Who cares? The team pays the driver salary, and they do as they are told.

People's belief add to what "should be done" had zero effect.

There are waaay too many entitled people on this thread fishing for any excuse for Vettel to be ahead of Hamilton.

Don't forget, Sebastian NOT applying pressure to Rosberg in Adu Dhabi last year in the closing laps guaranteed Hamilton defeat.

I just think there are still a ton of people that hate him for that, and the drivel on this forum is proof.

Just be happy more than 1 team has a legitimate shot at winning every race instead of boring dominance.

[George-Jung]

Why would a guy say that to another one is the issue though...

I guess to insult someone??

But seriously, could someone explain to me why Max got such a harsh penalty- whereas Bottas never got any in previous/similar events??

I assume because one was deemed a racing incident where both drivers suffered, and another one (this race), where the one causing it also benefitted from it.

Even Horner said post race; its likely Max wouldnt have made the corner had Dan not been there.

No arguments against Max's action being a mistake, but Bottas did take Max and Kimi out in Barcelona without penalties?

[drunkf1fan]

No arguments against Max's action being a mistake, but Bottas did take Max and Kimi out in Barcelona without penalties?

people keep saying Bottas took people out in Barcelona, he didn't, if anyone did Kimi did. Rewatch it, Bottas is ahead of Kimi then alongside, he's on the inside yet Kimi moves his tires extremely close to the curb and Bottas is forced across the curb and pretty much off track. But he was on the inside, he had every right to be there and also couldn't magically disappear. If Kimi didn't crowd him and dive for the apex they'd have all made it through the corner just fine.

The contact happened because of Kimi, not Bottas. Max was close to Kimi but again if you watch it he didn't push Kimi, he just followed Kimi's turn in, so if Kimi turned in leaving a car's width on the inside, Verstappen wouldn't have turned in as far either. Verstappen had no idea Bottas was on Kimi's inside but Kimi 100% knew, he was behind him going into the braking zone and there was no chance Bottas wouldn't be inside him.

For months I've seen Bottas be accused of taking Kimi out multiple times this year and it's just crazy. Bottas on the inside and Kimi cuts towards the apex. Frankly Kimi and Vettel have made numerous horrible turn ins for the first corner of a race in the past couple of years and hit multiple people as a result, Kvyat in Hungary when Kimi turned into Seb who turned into Kvyat. Verstappen on the inside of Kimi in Spa and Vettel turned in on a tight line needlessly.

If you enter the corner with a guy on the inside, stay on the middle of the track, don't change lines. Each incident is a case of that, Hungary Kimi went way wide, plenty of space for Kvyat and Vettel, Kimi cuts in to a tight line for no reason. Spa, Vettel was way wide, space for Kimi and Verstappen, Vettel decides to move to the middle of the track rather than stay outside, Spain this year, Kimi starts in the middle and decides to cut towards the apex.

This is one thing I want to see penalised heavily despite being turn one incidents, if you start on a line into the first corner stay on that line. Think back to Massa in Germany in 2014, Mag was it and Massa alongside each other, Bottas ahead, Massa starts outside but cuts to the apex and ends up flipping himself over. Yet about 5 other pairs of cars followed through that corner, when the guy on the outside decides if he can see a guy alongside him or not, to stay on the outside through the corner, no incident.

Bottas was definitely much more to blame in Baku though it's just a tough corner and that inner curb really shouldn't be there but it is so Bottas should have slowed more. But Barcelona was entirely Kimi's fault. Today going through t1, Verstappen went wide and then due to a slight brake by Vettel had to go a little wider to avoid Kimi, but Vettel, Kimi, Bottas and Hamilton all basically stayed on the same line following each other, Ricciardo went for the inside, no one changed line midcorner and there were no accidents, that isn't a coincidence. There should be a rule that whatever line you pick you stick to in the first corner.

EDIT:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2BUVrDNTI

change the speed so you can see but, if you look behind Kimi you see several other pairs of cars enter the corner together and the key reason there was no other contact is those who entered the corner with a guy on the inside stayed in the middle of the track through the corner. Kimi was the sole driver who entered the corner with a guy on the inside, started in the middle of the track but switched lines during the corner and that was the sole accident in that corner at the start of the race.

[ringo]

There was glimpse of what would have been a Hamilton and Verstappen Battle.
Max seemed to have resorted to his kamikaze style for a moment when hamilton started his old clinical overtake manoeuvres. Hamilton seemed to have got on the radio to complain about max driving dangerously.
Any thoughts on that little battle there?