2017 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 28-30 July

[outsid3r]

I admire your dedication to write such a long post, just like you did for Monaco. But honestly...doing the same fault again is either stupid or agenda...
There are only three lap times one needs to look at:
- Rai in clean air on old tires: 1:22.744
- Vet in clean air on new tires: 1:21.993
- Bot in clean air on new tires: 1:21.656

These are the times before the pit stop decision for Rai. You can have it more precise and look at the outlaps where Bot marked one second less than Vet.

I simply can not see any trigger to leave any Ferrari at this point on the track. There was one in Monaco with Ric lapping fast on old tires, but here we had Ric out, Ves penalty + slow and both Mercs pitted lapping fast on a track where you can not overtake. In this setup to delay a pitstop for an intra team battle is simply the most stupid thing you can do.

+1

And RAI was doing an excellent job of keeping the Mercs at bay. Had Ferrari asked VET to step aside, RAI would have easily won the race but they would have most likely lost 2nd and probably even 3rd and 4th because VET (with his hampered car) was in no shape to defend.

If you watch closely, you will notice RAI widening the gap to VET in the initial parts of the lap, slightly 'pushing' the Mercs back and then put in a good final sector (last corner most importantly) to prevent them from overtaking - just like HAM was doing in Abu Dhabi to ROS last year. RAI did an exceptional job of defending Ferrari's 1-2 and frankly that's all the team wanted from him. If the team swapped places (as some here would have wished for) I am pretty sure both Mercs would have been on the podium widening both the Constructor's AND Driver's championship points - good call Ferrari!

[basti313]

I admire your dedication to write such a long post, just like you did for Monaco. But honestly...doing the same fault again is either stupid or agenda...
There are only three lap times one needs to look at:
- Rai in clean air on old tires: 1:22.744
- Vet in clean air on new tires: 1:21.993
- Bot in clean air on new tires: 1:21.656

These are the times before the pit stop decision for Rai. You can have it more precise and look at the outlaps where Bot marked one second less than Vet.

I simply can not see any trigger to leave any Ferrari at this point on the track. There was one in Monaco with Ric lapping fast on old tires, but here we had Ric out, Ves penalty + slow and both Mercs pitted lapping fast on a track where you can not overtake. In this setup to delay a pitstop for an intra team battle is simply the most stupid thing you can do.

+1

And RAI was doing an excellent job of keeping the Mercs at bay. Had Ferrari asked VET to step aside, RAI would have easily won the race but they would have most likely lost 2nd and probably even 3rd and 4th because VET (with his hampered car) was in no shape to defend.

If you watch closely, you will notice RAI widening the gap to VET in the initial parts of the lap, slightly 'pushing' the Mercs back and then put in a good final sector (last corner most importantly) to prevent them from overtaking - just like HAM was doing in Abu Dhabi to ROS last year. RAI did an exceptional job of defending Ferrari's 1-2 and frankly that's all the team wanted from him. If the team swapped places, as some here would have wished, I am pretty sure both Mercs would have been on the podium widening both the Constructor's AND driver's Championship points - good call Ferrari!

+1
But I think it was more the pace of Vet: Vet was dead slow in S2 where he had to avoid the curbs. In S1 and S3 he had normal pace. So no overtaking possible as you can not drive within one second in S3.
We could nicely see how bad it was with the overtaking when looking at Ham: Ham was barely in DRS range, only one lap if I remember it correctly. He simply could not follow in turn 11 and 13, turn 14 was even worse. The only time he was in DRS he lost the car in turn 5 because he was too close. When Bot let him past, Bot needed to nearly stop in turn 1 because Ham was more than a second away.

[NathanOlder]

I admire your dedication to write such a long post, just like you did for Monaco. But honestly...doing the same fault again is either stupid or agenda...
There are only three lap times one needs to look at:
- Rai in clean air on old tires: 1:22.744
- Vet in clean air on new tires: 1:21.993
- Bot in clean air on new tires: 1:21.656

These are the times before the pit stop decision for Rai. You can have it more precise and look at the outlaps where Bot marked one second less than Vet.

I simply can not see any trigger to leave any Ferrari at this point on the track. There was one in Monaco with Ric lapping fast on old tires, but here we had Ric out, Ves penalty + slow and both Mercs pitted lapping fast on a track where you can not overtake. In this setup to delay a pitstop for an intra team battle is simply the most stupid thing you can do.

+1

And RAI was doing an excellent job of keeping the Mercs at bay. Had Ferrari asked VET to step aside, RAI would have easily won the race but they would have most likely lost 2nd and probably even 3rd and 4th because VET (with his hampered car) was in no shape to defend.

If you watch closely, you will notice RAI widening the gap to VET in the initial parts of the lap, slightly 'pushing' the Mercs back and then put in a good final sector (last corner most importantly) to prevent them from overtaking - just like HAM was doing in Abu Dhabi to ROS last year. RAI did an exceptional job of defending Ferrari's 1-2 and frankly that's all the team wanted from him. If the team swapped places (as some here would have wished for) I am pretty sure both Mercs would have been on the podium widening both the Constructor's AND Driver's championship points - good call Ferrari!

Just 1 thing, how would Seb lose 3rd or 4th when he finished roughly 10 seconds in front of those positions ?? Or did I miss Kimi actually pushing Vettel along ?

[zeus2]

Look at this:

Lap26 VET 1:22.386 -> RAI 1:22.442 -> BOT -> 1:22.632
Lap27 VET 1:22.550 -> RAI 1:22.509 -> BOT -> 1:22.675
Lap28 VET 1:23.079 -> RAI 1:22.675 -> BOT -> 1:22.439
Lap29 VET 1:23.447 -> RAI 1:23.157 -> BOT -> 1:22.791
Lap30 VET 1:22.592 -> RAI 1:22.744 -> BOT -> 1:25.008P (<-- BOT pit, was 7.487s behind VET, 6.292s behind RAI)
Lap31 VET 1:23.665 -> RAI 1:23.733 -> BOT -> 1:41.001O (<-- BOT pit and outlap, VET -> RAI gap at 1.415s)
Lap32 VET 1:25.390P -> RAI 1:22.701 -> BOT -> 1:21.656 (<-- VET pit)
Lap33 VET 1:39.996O -> RAI 1:23.778P -> BOT -> 1:21.264 (<-- RAI pit)
Lap34 VET 1:21.993 -> RAI 1:40.609O -> BOT -> 1:22.149
Lap35 VET 1:22.785 -> RAI 1:22.839 -> BOT -> 1:22.367
Lap36 VET 1:23.090 -> RAI 1:23.352 -> BOT -> 1:22.566
Lap37 VET 1:22.483 -> RAI 1:22.832 -> BOT -> 1:23.071

I didn't include the gaps between VET and RAI, but for all intends and purpose, it was hovering between 1.0 and 1.5s after Lap28. The gap from RAI to BOT was at the point of him pitting at 6.292s.

Vettel last complete lap before pitting was a 1:23.665. Then on Lap32, Vettel pitted with a time of 1:25.390. That very same lap, Kimi was released within that last stretch of that lap and completed that same lap with a 1:22.701 (9 tenths faster than Vettel on his previous lap).

Lap33, Vettel is inside the pits and drives out plus has his outlap and completed all that within a 1:39.996. That same lap, RAI was called into the pits, his IN-LAP being a 1:23.778. That was more than 1.5s faster than what Vettel did on his. I don't have the sector times, but I'm fairly confident the sector times were lit up like a christmas tree.

Then Lap34, we see that RAI has a less sufficient outlap of 1:40.609 but this is easily explained by Kimi coming out the pits and straight into Vettels rear bumper at a distance of 1.1s behind him, so this time is moot and not relevant.

Also relevant - the gap between RAI and BOT.

Lap31 - it was 25.824s.
Lap32 - it was 24.779s.
Lap33 - it was 22.265s (though this one is slightly off, due to Kimi being slowed by his pit-entry)

Also relevant: When Vettel pitted lap32 and came out lap33, his gap to Kimi was 17.492s. So I'd estimate the "cost" of pitting to be around 18 seconds.

In other words - Kimi's performance once released by Vettel and the lap he was called in to pit were amazing laps and there was more than a sufficient gap to the Mercedes to keep him out longer, if the team had acted in his interest.

Now you tell me with a straight face that Ferrari was NOT protecting Vettels lead at any cost? How could it be any different, considering Vettel was driving a handicapped car for 3/4 of the entire race and wasn't passed by the faster driver, his team-mate?

I'm happy to concede that once Vettel had pitted, the off-set of the fresher tire might have worked in Vettels favor even if Kimi had stayed out a lap longer, but man, you gotta wonder how close it could have been. There was no immediate risk from behind at that point, if the team had genuinely given Kimi a fair shot at it.

The average pit time in hungary is about 22-23 seconds . Kimis pit time was 21.919 seconds. His gap to vettel was 17.4 seconds when he pitted, so he would have had to make up 5 seconds to come out in front of vettel safely, which would have taken 4 to 5 laps assuming he was faster on used tyres then vettel on new tyre, which I think would have been unlikely as vettel was doing high 1.21s and low 1.22s on his out laps. But thats besides the point because, once again, ferrari was racing the mercs first. kimis gap to bottas was only 22.2 seconds when he pitted, so i'm guessing ferrari was more concerned about bottas then vettel when they pitted him. Considering it takes about 22 seconds to pit, even pitting him when they did was cutting it too close and risked his position to bottas. This is the big picture that kimi was talking about and probably realised it was a good call when he admitted after the race. You seem to be bent on focusing on vettel in hindsight but don't seem to realise that at that moment (without hindsight) the mercs were percieved to be a real threat as would anyone looking at the times.

[Chene_Mostert]

I wonder, If Lewis did manage to pass Kimmi after he insisted that Botas yields to him, would he still have given the place back to Botas?
What was the intention of the Switch? Was it to get lewis more points?, Was it to get him on the podium?
If so why did they Switch them back?

Or was it to put on a nice "check out what a genuine nice dude our driver is" PR Show?
Media and most die-hard LH fans seems to have nicely fallen for this PR stunt, praising their driver for giving "up" a place that, come to think of it, was never his place to give up to start with, as he never really challenged his team mate to earn the position.
I guess Mercedes AMG F1 team has realised that the best “great fans man” are the ones easily led by the nose with cheap PR propaganda.
What I also find very curios is that on 5 occasions so far this season Lewis stated that “ this venue is definitely in my top 3 list.” I struggle to understand this, surely the PR team should consider expanding the script to “top 10” list?

[sosic2121]

Kimi was capable of 1:21:5 in clean air. For how many laps with old tires is anyone's guess.

Vettel was 0.5s slower on next lap, when he was already in front of Kimi and I believe he could do those times for longer than kimi. (Bottas was able to improve his lap times for 3 laps, until kimi pitted)

Would kimi overtake seb next lap? maybe, maybe not
but that would be a death sentence for Vettel.
this way, Ferrari maximized result, and kimi probably secured his contract for next year.

[Mandrake]

Finally, well said. I was sitting back, flabbergasted, thinking "wait a minute, are people actually complaining about ferrari not issuing team orders, but happy with mercs doing so?

So it's a team-order when a team openly tells both their drivers to swap positions, but it's not a "team-order" when a team is doing everything possible to protect their one driver in the lead from their 2nd driver who is evidently faster from passing him?



AMuS already has the analysis that to pit Kimi a lap after Vettel was bad, as Kimi had a lot of pace on that tire and had he stayed out just a lap longer, might have actually gotten ahead of Vettel. Kimi even came on the radio after the pitstop questioning the timing of that stop, as he didn't understand it, even if it was quite evident to the rest of the world as to what was going on...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 97159.html

As much as I appreciate AMuS articles, they are also looking for views and clicks and blaming Ferrari for again favouring Vettel over Kimi. Vettel had some pace in hand knowing that he would not be easily passed on the track. Had Ferrari decided to let Kimi out longer (which would not have made any sense in a Ferrari POV because it might just have made Kimi more vulnerable against Bottas) Vettel I am sure could have upped his pace by the .5s he said to have in hand.

In essence, Kimi had no chance of overtaking Vettel on track as did the Mercs. Vettel was slow because of a broken car, not because of underperforming (unlike RAI in Monaco). Favouring Kimi in the PitStops would have been team order as well, somethin that Vettel would not have deserved having won Pole position and driven well until the car started failing.

[Shakeman]

I hope Liberty boot tracks like Hungary and Monaco, it's absurd that a driver in the lead can be so far off the pace of the following cars and no one can get by. Cars and tracks have to change to make this sport worth watching on a Sunday. I enjoy the off season tech of F1 but watching a procession on Sunday is utterly pointless, frankly I'd rather watch some of the live sim racing on Twitch than F1.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

I hope Liberty boot tracks like Hungary and Monaco, it's absurd that a driver in the lead can be so far off the pace of the following cars and no one can get by. Cars and tracks have to change to make this sport worth watching on a Sunday. I enjoy the off season tech of F1 but watching a procession on Sunday is utterly pointless, frankly I'd rather watch some of the live sim racing on Twitch than F1.

+1. Monaco of all, is the biggest MIS-FIT circuit on the calendar. I would love to see it go, along with Australia and Hungary.

As the regulations for the cars are changing, the requirements for Tracks also need to change to enable good racing. If a car is slower by 0.5 seconds (it costs f**** multi millions to build a car with half a second advantage), the circuit shouldn't save such car, it should be the skill of the driver. What is happening now is, even if a car is slower by 1 - 2 seconds, on circuits like Monaco, Australia and Hungary, the slower car is getting away.

We saw in Russia and Austria, how two equally matched cars scrap for the win. There was never a point where it was guaranteed as to who would win. That is how it should be. We shouldn't be robbed off racing spectacle because of stupid layout of a circuit.

[Andres125sx]

Ferrari screwing Kimi with the strategy again, started setting purple sectors then they bought him in so he doesn't get ahead of Seb

When was last time you took a look at the WDC?

[Andres125sx]

No one is going to overtake no one in Hungary.

True... except Alonso on Sainz

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Ferrari screwing Kimi with the strategy again, started setting purple sectors then they bought him in so he doesn't get ahead of Seb

When was last time you took a look at the WDC?

On one hand, Ferrari asks Kimi to raise the game and on the other, when he is really performing well, they curtail his progress. Don't you think it affects a driver's mentally and that is why he is where he is in WDC standings?

[Phil]

@basti313

We are arguing different things. I never said that RAI would have certainly passed Vettel if he was given a go 1-lap longer. The only argument here is that:

1.) Ferrari could have kept Kimi out 1-lap longer without compromising the "team result"
2.) Kimi would have had a genuine shot if he had stayed out a lap longer
3.) Ferrari did not give Kimi that shot because it could have compromised Vettels result and perhaps made one of their cars more vulnerable vs. both Mercedes

Either Ferrari is intelligent here for playing the WDC game and thinking strategically or they lucked into keeping their WDC contender with the limping car staying ahead. It can't be both.

It's a no brainer if you ask me. Imagine if they had given Kimi that shot and he would have gotten past Vettel. He would have driven off into the distance while Vettel, continuing with a compromised car, would have been more vulnerable to at least one of the Mercedes coming from behind. They did the sensible thing here.

You can argue margins as long as you want, the fact remains there was a sufficient gap to Bottas. The gap was at 6.292 the lap (L29) before Bottas pitted. Bottas in-lap wasn't particularly strong (give or take close to Vettel, but way slower than Kimi's) and on lap 34 the gap was down to 3.805s.

Simple math suggests that over 5 laps, the gap came down at a rate of 0.497 per lap to the Ferrari in 2nd position.

I maintain that Kimi's lap 33 was extremely strong. His 1:23.778 (IN-LAP) was 1.6s faster than Vettels the lap before. It was 1.3s faster than Bottas IN-LAP. This suggests Kimi had pace. If his previous lap was 1:22.701 and that lap was limited by Vettel (Kimi was only released right at the end), it only suggests we are talking about a lap that must have been significantly faster than that 1:22.701. I don't think I am that far off with my estimate of something between a high 1.21.xxx and a low 1.22.xxx lap.

Even if Bottas was doing a 1:21.264 (and a 1:21.656 before that), he wasn't faster than a second per lap. At that point before Kimi pitted, the virtual gap was somewhere around 4.5s - 4.9s. Sufficiently to do another lap and still have a margin of more than 2s (which is mighty in F1 terms).



@ zeus2

Your math is off.

The average pit time in hungary is about 22-23 seconds . Kimis pit time was 21.919 seconds. His gap to vettel was 17.4 seconds when he pitted, so he would have had to make up 5 seconds to come out in front of vettel safely, which would have taken 4 to 5 laps assuming he was faster on used tyres then vettel on new tyre, which I think would have been unlikely as vettel was doing high 1.21s and low 1.22s on his out laps.

If that were the case, Kimi would never have come out right behind Vettel...

[Chene_Mostert]

I hope Liberty boot tracks like Hungary and Monaco, it's absurd that a driver in the lead can be so far off the pace of the following cars and no one can get by. Cars and tracks have to change to make this sport worth watching on a Sunday. I enjoy the off season tech of F1 but watching a procession on Sunday is utterly pointless, frankly I'd rather watch some of the live sim racing on Twitch than F1.

Great drivers managed overtakes on "impossible to pass" tracks in the past. the current crop just needs to have a bit more balls and stop worry about "its to dangerous" and "he moved twice" and " his rear left was 5cm outside the white line" and "he touched me" and that "that was dangerous".
They need to be willing to get their elbows out and handle F1 as a sport and not a Show.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

I hope Liberty boot tracks like Hungary and Monaco, it's absurd that a driver in the lead can be so far off the pace of the following cars and no one can get by. Cars and tracks have to change to make this sport worth watching on a Sunday. I enjoy the off season tech of F1 but watching a procession on Sunday is utterly pointless, frankly I'd rather watch some of the live sim racing on Twitch than F1.

Great drivers managed overtakes on "impossible to pass" tracks in the past. the current crop just needs to have a bit more balls and stop worry about "its to dangerous" and "he moved twice" and " his rear left was 5cm outside the white line" and "he touched me" and that "that was dangerous".
They need to be willing to get their elbows out and handle F1 as a sport and not a Show.

I am seriously laughing. You haven't followed how the cars have changed right over the years with aero. If you truly have followed, you would understand the fundamental problem in overtaking with current generation of cars. Even if those great dead drivers come back to drive these cars, they can't overtake a dog here.