2017 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 28-30 July

[basti313]

This precisely suggests the difference between a team like Mercedes, who in the past has enabled the drivers precisely more freedom when trying to 'beat each other',

Come on...you can not use Formula Mercedes as an argument. They could simply pit whenever they wanted, they were just waiting for the 25sec gap to P3.
On the other hand when the Mercs were driving their own race, behind the same applied: When P4 was pitting, P3 was pitting one lap later in a usual race.

Did we see drivers' from a team racing each other in 2004, when the car was the MOST dominant? We saw team mates racing each in 1988, 1989, 2014, 2015 and 2016 when the team had the most dominant car.

This is a bit of a strange comparison...the question might have appeared if Barrichello would not have been miles away in performance.
I did not have the impression, that there was anything wrong in this year...whenever they met on track we saw clean overtakes (like USA) or they just went on like this (Bar winning Italy). I would have expected rather 2002 in the discussion???

[motobaleno]

The Ferrari of today is a lot more conscious on how it is perceived in the media. Coming out and out rightly ordering that one driver to stand down isn't exactly good moral wise either, especially if that driver has a huge F1 following.

maybe "moral" is a very too big word...it's only a matter of different vision of the sport. many sports not only allow for team orders but they consider one real strong and "moral" feature of that specific discipline (e.g. biking)...so there is a perfetct legitimate vision that considers team orders in F1 perfectly good, and another one that does not like them, but in any case it is not at all a case of "morality".

[basti313]

Come on...you can not use Formula Mercedes as an argument. They could simply pit whenever they wanted, they were just waiting for the 25sec gap to P3.
On the other hand when the Mercs were driving their own race, behind the same applied: When P4 was pitting, P3 was pitting one lap later in a usual race.

Why not? Didn't Mercedes this race prove that in NOT Mercedes Formula, they were happy for their drivers to switch back again?

A bit of a different approach, isn't it? And why not leave Ham out? Didn't they allow him to beat Bottas? Bottas had a poor outlap and lost 1.8sec to Ham albeit pitting earlier. The (poor) arguments you are using on Rai vs. Vet would match better on Ham vs. Bot.

And you are still ignoring the blatant obvious: The argument was never about what benefits Ferrari, it was only about in who's interest was it to pit Kimi one lap after Vettel with that gap of 4.5s - 4.8s behind to Bottas.

Ferrari? So Ferrari radioed to Rai to pit? Is this too obvious to be true?

Yes. If they want to switch positions, they just tell them to switch positions. There is simply no need for compromises and bringing one car in danger from behind. I am 100% sure, that Ferrari has a "Multi21" code for Kimi.

The Ferrari of today is a lot more conscious on how it is perceived in the media. Coming out and out rightly ordering that one driver to stand down isn't exactly good moral wise either, especially if that driver has a huge F1 following.

I know we are in the tinfoil hat area. But anyway I am sure we will see the switch sooner or later this season.

[TAG]

Some people are blind, only because they choose not to see.

Kimi Raikkonen has confirmed after Sunday’s Hungarian Grand Prix that his Ferrari’s engineers put him on an alternate strategy which forced him to stay behind team mate Vettel, despite Raikkonen feeling he “had all the tools to finish in a better position.”

Raikkonen explained that his engineers insisted he pit on lap 33, just one lap after race leader Vettel. “I wanted to stay on track a bit longer because I felt I had the speed,” admitted Raikkonen.

He then expanded, telling the media Ferrari made this decision specifically because “the team has the big picture” – an allusion to Sebastian Vettel’s championship challenge, which is currently all-but-successful with the German leading rival Lewis Hamilton by 14 points.

Crucially, Raikkonen did go onto say the team has his “trust” with this decision. Had Ferrari decided to let Raikkonen attack, with Vettel consequently finishing P2 – the latter’s championship lead would be just 7 points.

“I ended up following Seb through the whole race and I was never able to use my full speed,” Raikkonen revealed.

Full Article

[Phil]

A bit of a different approach, isn't it? And why not leave Ham out? Didn't they allow him to beat Bottas? Bottas had a poor outlap and lost 1.8sec to Ham albeit pitting earlier. The (poor) arguments you are using on Rai vs. Vet would match better on Ham vs. Bot.

That possibly might have worked, but apparently according to the post-race interview by Hamilton, they had radio problems at that point and Hamilton wasn't able to call it in that he felt he could stay out longer - if at the very least as a means to set himself up better towards the end of the race when closing in on significantly younger tires.

And you are still ignoring the blatant obvious: The argument was never about what benefits Ferrari, it was only about in who's interest was it to pit Kimi one lap after Vettel with that gap of 4.5s - 4.8s behind to Bottas.

Ferrari? So Ferrari radioed to Rai to pit? Is this too obvious to be true?

Thank you. So Ferrari acted in Ferraris interest, which is, ensuring to retaining the lead with the championship leading car.

If they had wanted or allowed Kimi to have a go (because he was genuinely quicker), they would have kept him out a lap longer with no risk to the team-result. So coming back to an earlier question that was raised: How is this any less "team-orders" (e.g. a team artificially influencing the race result) than what Mercedes did openly by swapping their drivers?

[Manoah2u]

Kimi was visibly faster than Vettel. I am fully confident he would have won the race. It was the real kimi we saw this time around, blazingly fast. Just really cr*p that the reds favour Vettel.
then again, even if they wouldn't be favouring vettel for a WDC, there's the thing that had they let Kimi pass, Vettel would have become vulnerable for the Mercs of Bottas and Hamilton.

Vettel was having issues with the curbs so you could say he was a bit handicapped where either Raikkonen [though later also warned] and the Mercs were free of this issue. Which then would explain Vettel's slower speed compared to Kimi, and then the question rises, is it fair to let Kimi pass? i still think it would have been fair, but still, it also would have meant he would be a sitting duck for the Mercs.

You could say Ferrari pushed Kimi into the mercs like this - and that be true - especially in regards that kimi was vocal that was exactly what he didn't want to see happening. But since kimi was actually faster, and seemingly did not have the issues Vettel had, you could argue kimi was in a better shape to defend himself to the marching mercedeses.

In the end though, the wake did enough that the Mercs simply couldn't pass, so why not let Kimi pass a few laps before the end either way.

Both Kimi and Hamilton though could have driven a different race had they pitted on their own decision, but we'll never know, just like we'll never know where Verstappen or Ricciardo would have finished had they not collided. Looking at the speed, and the finish despite the penalty, there might have been a top 3 in there for both, and that could include threatening the Ferrari's.

I am surprised to see though how the Ferrari's have bounced back. They're might fast again.

[TAG]

I am surprised to see though how the Ferrari's have bounced back. They're might fast again.

Being fast in a slow circuit hasn't translated at all to being fast in a fast circuit. Not many of those left this year.

[iotar__]

- Hamilton should be grateful to Verstappen, after poor start and without his no quality driving he would have finished sixth in the second quickest car. The right way.

- Verstappen, mindless across the corner with no attempt to make it alongside, MO of the career. Got away lightly, if it was Kvyat that would have been a drive-through.
- Hulkenberg got away with two penalties, first Verstappen type move and second dangerous coming back on track, something Kvyat got a drive through for in GB.

- In light of the above Mangnussen got a penalty for nothing. Run of the mill poor attempt and running out of space. Off the top my head I can name a dozen worse pushing off incident FIA didn't even investigate, starting with Ham 3x on Rosb, Ricc on Raikk or Verst on Vett in previous races.

FIA's refereeing is an outright manipulated farce. Meanwhile smuggest of them all Brawn instead of fixing it is enjoying attention posing for interviews .

[Mandrake]

The points and counterpoints here are missing or choosing to miss the inherent difference between the two team philosophies. Kimi didn't attack because he's wearing a collar. An advantage Vettel is accustomed to. and would have come out on the losing end yesterday if he didn't have it.

Kimi could have attacked all they way he wanted, his speed advantage was not large enough. Especially with Vettel only having to watch the curbs in Sector 2. Hamilton could not make an impression on Kimi eventhough Kimi was hindered by a car in front as well. So how would Kimi have been able to pass Vettel? Btw. I doubt that either Merc could have challenged Vettel, same logic as above.

Kimi could have won if Ferrari had either orchestrated the PitStops or had simply waved Kimi past. And why would they do that? 1-2 finish order does not matter for the WCC and for WDC I'm sorry but Kimi brought himself out of contention.

The Merc teams "philosophy" differs in that Toto was absolute certain Hamilton could pass Kimi so the awkward situation we had would never arise. Now that it did he tried to make sure Merc comes out as the moral winner, something especially the British press celebrates (for whatever reason). Both Niki and Toto did not look like enjoying the switch back.

[Chene_Mostert]

I hope Liberty boot tracks like Hungary and Monaco, it's absurd that a driver in the lead can be so far off the pace of the following cars and no one can get by. Cars and tracks have to change to make this sport worth watching on a Sunday. I enjoy the off season tech of F1 but watching a procession on Sunday is utterly pointless, frankly I'd rather watch some of the live sim racing on Twitch than F1.

Great drivers managed overtakes on "impossible to pass" tracks in the past. the current crop just needs to have a bit more balls and stop worry about "its to dangerous" and "he moved twice" and " his rear left was 5cm outside the white line" and "he touched me" and that "that was dangerous".
They need to be willing to get their elbows out and handle F1 as a sport and not a Show.

I am seriously laughing. You haven't followed how the cars have changed right over the years with aero. If you truly have followed, you would understand the fundamental problem in overtaking with current generation of cars. Even if those great dead drivers come back to drive these cars, they can't overtake a dog here.

Here are lap times from past Hungarian GP’s, they were faster with less power, lighter and also relied heavely on aero to make them go fast.
Mclarens from late 80’s to early 90’s had massive diffusors, Williams massive front wings with no standard cental section and during the 2000’s the aero detailing were miles ahead of todays mandated rounded bodywork regulations.

The only way the cars have changed over the years is that they became slower. Current cars are in reality not the “monsters” you think they are.
The actual laughing matter is the fact that you consider the “evolution” of F1 becoming faster to have started in 2014…

It has become way too easy for the actors of the show and fans of the actors of the show to blame the Aero.
Senna never, in any pre race interview said overtaking is impossible but he hopes to put on a “great SHOW” for the “great fans man”

Year Driver Team Lap time
1989 Riccardo Patrese Williams-Renault 1:19.726
1990 Thierry Boutsen Williams-Renault 1:17.919
1991 Ayrton Senna McLaren-Honda 1:16.147
1992 Riccardo Patrese Williams-Renault 1:15.476
1993 Alain Prost Williams-Renault 1:14.631
1994 Michael Schumacher Benetton-Ford 1:18.258
1995 Damon Hill Williams-Renault 1:16.982
1996 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:17.129
1997 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:14.672
1998 Mika Häkkinen McLaren-Mercedes 1:16.973
1999 Mika Häkkinen McLaren-Mercedes 1:18.156
2000 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:17.514
2001 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:14.059
2002 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:13.333
2003 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:21.688
2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:19.146
2005 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:19.882
2006 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 1.19.599
2007 Fernando Alonso McLaren-Mercedes 1:19.674
2008 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 1:21.140
2009 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:21.569
2010 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:18.773
2011 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:19.815
2012 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:20.953
2013 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:19.388
2014 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1:22.715
2015 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:22.020
2016 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1:19.965
2017 Sebastian Vettel Ferrari 1:16.276

A 1 min 13.3 from Rubens wow and no runoff back then...

[NathanOlder]

I wonder, If Lewis did manage to pass Kimmi after he insisted that Botas yields to him, would he still have given the place back to Botas?
What was the intention of the Switch? Was it to get lewis more points?, Was it to get him on the podium?
If so why did they Switch them back?

Or was it to put on a nice "check out what a genuine nice dude our driver is" PR Show?
Media and most die-hard LH fans seems to have nicely fallen for this PR stunt, praising their driver for giving "up" a place that, come to think of it, was never his place to give up to start with, as he never really challenged his team mate to earn the position.
I guess Mercedes AMG F1 team has realised that the best “great fans man” are the ones easily led by the nose with cheap PR propaganda.
What I also find very curios is that on 5 occasions so far this season Lewis stated that “ this venue is definitely in my top 3 list.” I struggle to understand this, surely the PR team should consider expanding the script to “top 10” list?

What the actual fook are you on about. Of course if Lewis had passed Kimi he would have stayed in 2nd!!! Merc used their head to have a go at Ferrari. So if he got in front of 1 Ferrari it would have been a good job. As he didn't , they switched back as agreed.

Stop trying to pick at holes that dont exist.
It wasn't a PR stunt. It was , driver number 77 was unable to catch Ferrari. Driver 44 reckons he can. We have nothing to lose if we try. If he cant pass any Ferrari we will switch them back as thats fair.

Jesus christ

[langwadt]

Quote of the year Magnussen: "Suck my balls Mate" to Hulk

I'm quite sure he said "Suck my balls honey"

[jonas_linder]

...

Here are lap times from past Hungarian GP’s, they were faster with less power, lighter and also relied heavely on aero to make them go fast.
Mclarens from late 80’s to early 90’s had massive diffusors, Williams massive front wings with no standard cental section and during the 2000’s the aero detailing were miles ahead of todays mandated rounded bodywork regulations.

The only way the cars have changed over the years is that they became slower. Current cars are in reality not the “monsters” you think they are.
The actual laughing matter is the fact that you consider the “evolution” of F1 becoming faster to have started in 2014…

...

Well, the layout was changed for the 2003 season

In 2003, the main straight (turn one, see diagram) was lengthened by roughly 200 m (660 ft) to 908 m, and the hairpin at the end of the straight was also tightened in an attempt to facilitate more overtaking opportunities, as well as a tightening of what was turn 12.

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaroring

[Chene_Mostert]

I wonder, If Lewis did manage to pass Kimmi after he insisted that Botas yields to him, would he still have given the place back to Botas?
What was the intention of the Switch? Was it to get lewis more points?, Was it to get him on the podium?
If so why did they Switch them back?

Or was it to put on a nice "check out what a genuine nice dude our driver is" PR Show?
Media and most die-hard LH fans seems to have nicely fallen for this PR stunt, praising their driver for giving "up" a place that, come to think of it, was never his place to give up to start with, as he never really challenged his team mate to earn the position.
I guess Mercedes AMG F1 team has realised that the best “great fans man” are the ones easily led by the nose with cheap PR propaganda.
What I also find very curios is that on 5 occasions so far this season Lewis stated that “ this venue is definitely in my top 3 list.” I struggle to understand this, surely the PR team should consider expanding the script to “top 10” list?

What the actual fook are you on about. Of course if Lewis had passed Kimi he would have stayed in 2nd!!! Merc used their head to have a go at Ferrari. So if he got in front of 1 Ferrari it would have been a good job. As he didn't , they switched back as agreed.

Stop trying to pick at holes that dont exist.
It wasn't a PR stunt. It was , driver number 77 was unable to catch Ferrari. Driver 44 reckons he can. We have nothing to lose if we try. If he cant pass any Ferrari we will switch them back as thats fair.

Jesus christ

The question is Why are they willing to gift Lewis a second spot but nor a 3rd spot, if points are not that important why switch them in the first place?
Why not tell Botas to have a go at Kimmi, Seb was so slow and holding up Kimmi?
What made the team Think Lewis can have a better go at kimmi? I mean you expect the slowest to be let by by the slower to have a go at the slow?

[basti313]

Well, the layout was changed for the 2003 season

In 2003, the main straight (turn one, see diagram) was lengthened by roughly 200 m (660 ft) to 908 m, and the hairpin at the end of the straight was also tightened in an attempt to facilitate more overtaking opportunities, as well as a tightening of what was turn 12.

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaroring

True. But I still do not understand, why they keep this stupid turn 14. There is nothing around that avoids to make it broader or two 90° out of it. There is also no need to have the pit entry alongside.