2017 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 28-30 July

[Vasconia]

The battle between the Spaniards was a one to watch. Pretty aggressive defense by Sainz against Alonso but totally legal IMO. During the firts laps Carlos was clearly faster but Alonso managed the tyres better and his overtake was great, perfectly executed as its usual in Alonso. A good weekend for both because they defeated their team mates again.

[fiohaa]

can anyone explain why the fastest race lap was 4 seconds off the qualifying lap?
people have been making such a big deal about these cars - yet the average race pace is still miles off what it was 10 years ago.
yes yes i know fuel - but i would have thought with the more durable tyres and the fuel coming down to a minimum, that they would be running much closer to the qualifying times towards the end of the race???

or are they having to take it so easy on the cars now to save engines that they have to trundle around miles off the pace?

[Manoah2u]

I thoroughly enjoyed that battle BUT must say that after the restart, i think Sainz was a fair bit too cheeky on Alonso, pushing him off even.
I'm fine he didn't get a penalty in the end though, i don't like the idea that every little thing needs a penalty, though above all i think consistancy
should be weighed further, and that's something far to see with the FIA. I sometimes wonder whether they're actually looking at the race or simply
playing poker and occasionally watching the TV feeds.

But, nonetheless, great fight between Alonso and Sainz, and Stellar results for Alonso, but also very impressive result from Sainz.
Matter of fact, i think Sainz should have gotten much more credit for his drive this weekend and especially race day than he had, i dare say i think he was worth
a driver of the day award. This performance was nothing less of his Brazil 2016 performance, which got greatly looked over because of Verstappen's dazzling drive there.

I'd think twice if i was RedBull if i wanted to get rid of Sainz. I think he's matured quite well too in this short time in F1 and if he gets to ripen and not some heavy marko breath
in his neck he could do some magic. I think the Renault seat or the Force India seat would be the best options for him right now.

[Manoah2u]

can anyone explain why the fastest race lap was 4 seconds off the qualifying lap?
people have been making such a big deal about these cars - yet the average race pace is still miles off what it was 10 years ago.
yes yes i know fuel - but i would have thought with the more durable tyres and the fuel coming down to a minimum, that they would be running much closer to the qualifying times towards the end of the race???

or are they having to take it so easy on the cars now to save engines that they have to trundle around miles off the pace?

It's engine modes, too. You can't run a full race distance on qually mode, that would cost you your engine.
That means to get to qually times they need to change the engine mode, and that's fine for a short qually run,
but not much for a race with multiple laps. You can't just cool down stuff like in qually as you'd be overtaken.
Then there's traffic. You're in the wake of cars around you for a lot of the time, heavy impact on the car.
Then there's tires. The tires during qually only need to last 1 flying lap perhaps 2 at best. That means they are
allowed to be trashed at the end of those laps.
You can't do that during racing. They're on old, worn tires to begin with, and it's not worth changing tires last
moment for fresh stuff just for some hotlap that doesn't count.
Fatigue might also play a little in the game.
Saving engines surely indeed is also part of the deal.

Combine these things and you get a better picture on the time differences.

Also, in the good old days, the difference between qually and race also were substancial. nothing new.

[ferkan]

Bottas blowing up his engine while defending hard against Vettel in Spain (who he wasnt even racing) while he was on course for 3rd place was seen as "great team effort". He pretty much fought for Hamilton to get his win, while he risked (and in the end lost) his old engine he was running in that race.

Bottas not holding Vettel there and finishing 3rd, while Hamilton retained 2nd place, would mean now Bottas would be ahead of Hamilton in WDC. But please, continue with inane arguing over Ferrari not ordering Vettel to move for a driver who is 100pts behind in WDC standings (and losing 1-2 in process). Seriously irrational thinking.

Lewis Hamilton : 188 PTS
Valterri Bottas : 169 PTS

points difference; 19 PTS

do tell me how on earth Valterri would have gained 20 !!!!!! over lewis whilst both finishing in the points.
Seriously irrational thinking. indeed.

Bottas engine blew up as the team was taking a risk. it had nothing to do with supposedly helping out lewis. what irrational thought pattern to think like that. The team risks far more by that by losing valuable constructor points.
the team took a risk with that engine, as they aknowledged, tinfoil hat stories don't make any sense here.

you're essentially saying - and somehow believing it yourself - that mercedes made a concious decision, knowing this engine could blow at any time when pushed too hard, to 'help' lewis get 5 more points, and lose 15 points by losing bottas' engine? just to help lewis? if you believe that, then wow, just wow.
if any, the team would have told Bottas to take it down a notch and go in 'safe mode' and perhaps finish 4th or 5th instead.

and you call others having irrational thinking.

He lost 15 pts duo to engine blowing up and he helped Hamilton take 1st place. Had Hamilton stayed 2nd and Bottas finished, it would be Bottas (+15) and Ham (-7). In any case while Ham had gearbox issue in Austria, Bott had it in Silverstone.

All Im saying is Bottas drove aggressively few laps to defend against Vettel (who he wasnt even racing). He literally took one for team and Hamilton, and some here have decency to talk about Ferrari not ordering driver with 100pts less then WDC leader to pass freely and leave actual WDC leader, who is driving with mechanical issue, to finihs 3rd at most.

[Manoah2u]

He lost 15 pts duo to engine blowing up and he helped Hamilton take 1st place.

Had Hamilton stayed 2nd and Bottas finished, it would be Bottas (+15) and Ham (-7). In any case while Ham had gearbox issue in Austria, Bott had it in Silverstone.

Bottas' engine gave way. It really matters squad whether he - according to you - was helping lewis get a win no matter the cost. the simple fact is, his engine died. end of story.

there is no 'had he / him stayed here or there or this or that'.
had hammys heardrest not come off, he would have won Baku.

it makes zero sense to think like that, and it makes less sense to then call other people thinking irrational.
anyway, i don't get why another race needs discussion in this topic.

[ferkan]

Its irrational because same people that are now lamenting about Ferrari not letting Kimi pass, were the same people who were praising Bottas for great team work. Except at this stage of championship, Kimi literally has no chance.

[Wass85]

can anyone explain why the fastest race lap was 4 seconds off the qualifying lap?
people have been making such a big deal about these cars - yet the average race pace is still miles off what it was 10 years ago.
yes yes i know fuel - but i would have thought with the more durable tyres and the fuel coming down to a minimum, that they would be running much closer to the qualifying times towards the end of the race???

or are they having to take it so easy on the cars now to save engines that they have to trundle around miles off the pace?

It's engine modes, too. You can't run a full race distance on qually mode, that would cost you your engine.
That means to get to qually times they need to change the engine mode, and that's fine for a short qually run,
but not much for a race with multiple laps. You can't just cool down stuff like in qually as you'd be overtaken.
Then there's traffic. You're in the wake of cars around you for a lot of the time, heavy impact on the car.
Then there's tires. The tires during qually only need to last 1 flying lap perhaps 2 at best. That means they are
allowed to be trashed at the end of those laps.
You can't do that during racing. They're on old, worn tires to begin with, and it's not worth changing tires last
moment for fresh stuff just for some hotlap that doesn't count.
Fatigue might also play a little in the game.
Saving engines surely indeed is also part of the deal.

Combine these things and you get a better picture on the time differences.

Also, in the good old days, the difference between qually and race also were substancial. nothing new.

Most of those points were relevant back in 2004-2005.

[Hammerfist]

What! Only 19 points between LH & VB!
Botas doing a lot better than what I expected at the start of the season.
Lewis will have to start to pull finger, VB could very well finish the season ahead of him.

Seb is unavoidably going to get a grid penalty for engine/gearbox change and then there's no way they will beat Mercedes in that race, so there's easily 13 points to win over Vettel for Lewis in just 1 race (should he bring in a Win and Vettel get p4 tops) and we're back as we were before Hungary.

Binotto in the press conference at Hungary explained that they are just rotating their turbos, the older turbos have received reliability updates so they are as good as new. They do not think they will be penalized. I say stay tuned.

[NathanOlder]

can anyone explain why the fastest race lap was 4 seconds off the qualifying lap?
people have been making such a big deal about these cars - yet the average race pace is still miles off what it was 10 years ago.
yes yes i know fuel - but i would have thought with the more durable tyres and the fuel coming down to a minimum, that they would be running much closer to the qualifying times towards the end of the race???

or are they having to take it so easy on the cars now to save engines that they have to trundle around miles off the pace?

Like Manoah2u said,

In Qualy
Qualy mode for Engine , New SuperSoft Tyres.

In Race
Race mode for Engine. And when they are on qualy like fuel loads they had 35 lap old harder tyres.

Plus you can use DRS in qualifying without having a car in your way or compromising your line

[TAG]

Its irrational because same people that are now lamenting about Ferrari not letting Kimi pass, were the same people who were praising Bottas for great team work. Except at this stage of championship, Kimi literally has no chance.

Passion is irrational. That leads to praising one driver for the same thing they chastise another. Vettel was never attacked by Kimi in the race, a lot of posturing but mostly chest thumping to remind Ferrari why they pay him so well to do what they ask. Now count the posts in this thread from people stating unequivocally that Kimi would never have been able to overtake his teammate.

It's a different deal at Ferrari, we understand. But you then can't use the same yardstick to measure things. Imagine Rosberg at Mercedes last year doing the same for his teammate?

Apples to oranges. We'd save ourselves a lot of this back and forth on the race thread if people stopped insisting its otherwise.

[Sieper]

Thanks everybody for the insightfull and sensible discussion! top stuff! Heated at times is fine, but please just the discussion points it self not the values judgement on anothers character or intelligence (or lack thereof).

[PlatinumZealot]

can anyone explain why the fastest race lap was 4 seconds off the qualifying lap?
people have been making such a big deal about these cars - yet the average race pace is still miles off what it was 10 years ago.
yes yes i know fuel - but i would have thought with the more durable tyres and the fuel coming down to a minimum, that they would be running much closer to the qualifying times towards the end of the race???

or are they having to take it so easy on the cars now to save engines that they have to trundle around miles off the pace?

The Q lap has fresh tyres so unless someone pops on a set for one lap and doesn't care what happens after... Also the Q lap has the engine in Q-mode, meaning MGUH does not generate any electricity at all meaning your pace will be mega slow after the fast lap... Another factor is fuel loads...do you have enough fuel to do this? Fourthly is driver and car condition near the end of the race: The driver is fatigued and the car, well the car has all sorts of debris stuck on the aero surfaces. Fifthly is the engine and gearbox.. do you want to risk them? I suppose all these factors and more could contribute to the four second slower lap-time.

[dans79]

the older turbos have received reliability updates so they are as good as new.

You cannot update a PU component in any way once its been used. The only thing you can do is inspect it.

[Zynerji]

Qualifying is for headline times, the race is about close deltas.