Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Joseki]

[henry]

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

I recall the assertion that all electrical energy went via the ES in Honda's first season. I assume they have fixed that now. But even so they seem a long way down on combined ICE MGU-H power.

[harjan]

It's painful to watch.
https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/video ... 958748654/

It looks like FI and Haas can carry 10+kph more at the corner exit

Corner exit? Eau Rouge is easily flat, so that's a straight from La Source all the way to the Kemmel Straight. He was alongside him before the DRS so that's purely power difference.

[Dimi]

It's painful to watch.
https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/video ... 958748654/

It looks like FI and Haas can carry 10+kph more at the corner exit

Corner exit? Eau Rouge is easily flat, so that's a straight from La Source all the way to the Kemmel Straight. He was alongside him before the DRS so that's purely power difference.

So all cars enter and exit eau rouge with speed constantly increasing..?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2yfKKA-gIZY

[ZakB]

http://i.imgur.com/NNdJzzW.gif

How in the hell is Honda going to fix that in the remainder of 2017 or 2018? I really hope they switch to Renault.

It looks like FI and Haas can carry 10+kph more at the corner exit

Corner exit? Eau Rouge is easily flat, so that's a straight from La Source all the way to the Kemmel Straight. He was alongside him before the DRS so that's purely power difference.

So all cars enter and exit eau rouge with speed constantly increasing..?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2yfKKA-gIZY

What point are you actually trying to make?

[harjan]

My question as well, they're all flat out. Honda does seem to scrub a bit more speed, but that's torque not chassis related.

[namao]

Two options for 2018:

1. McLaren-Renault with ALO and ToroRosso-Honda.
2. (Likely option) McLaren-Honda and ALO out of F1 (WEC, Indy or Karting Museum) and possible romantic come back in 2019/2020 in a real winning car (Mercedes if HAM leaves or Renault)

End of the story.

[DarkAlman]

I really wish we could see the data to see where the deficit is actually occurring.

How much of it is from top-end HP vs ERS recovery and deployment vs fuel saving

It seems like they got the reliability problems with the MGU-H finally sorted out. Now it's all about getting HP gains.

Can anyone specify what the induction change was? If it was a penalty free change then was it a change to airbox and intake shape then? If things like that are worth .1s a lap then hopefully we will see a bunch of those changes in short order.

Honda matching or beating the HP of Ferrari/Mercedes is a tall order but hopefully they'll make some good progress with the next couple of updates and start closing the gap. The problem of course is that Merc and Ferrari aren't standing still on their dev either. Hopefully Honda is able to push out some quick performance updates out since their current engine is significantly less developed overall than the rest of the field.

Also curious to know what changes Ilmor recommended. If that's the path they need to go down then go get some Pratt and Whitney guys on the payroll to work on the compressor and turbine efficiency. Hire some Tesla guys to work on the battery and control electronics.

[FW17]

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

I recall the assertion that all electrical energy went via the ES in Honda's first season. I assume they have fixed that now. But even so they seem a long way down on combined ICE MGU-H power.

No, thick and short energy deployment strategy, they used it last year

And were convinced that it was the best way forward, So most likely using the same this year. I guess this is stemming from low MGU H recovery from both self sustain and braking period.

If they recover 1.5 MJ during the braking from H and 1.5 MJ from K in a typical lap

I would have thought that the top engines had the ability to harvest at least 40KW during 80% of the full throttle period, which means that they would be able to deploy 40KW self sustain + 80KW from battery would give it 31 sec 120 KW (2.5 MJ recovered and stored) and 0.5 MJ for turbo lag management

[FW17]

Also curious to know what changes Ilmor recommended. If that's the path they need to go down then go get some Pratt and Whitney guys on the payroll to work on the compressor and turbine efficiency. Hire some Tesla guys to work on the battery and control electronics.

How can you suggest American technology to F1? Don't you know Europe is the center of the F1?

[Pedrohf]

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

I follow this forum for a long time. Although I have experience modeling engines (including some turbocompound simulations), I dont feel I have the necessary knowledge to post, about F1 engines.

But you dont have any knowledge at all, but still, you just post bullshit after bullshit, and ruin all the topics over and over, for no reason. Its really a shame, because there are experts on the forum, with constructive posts, but you always ruin the interesting conversations.
Some days ago, it was the dual fuel BS, now the blowdown BS again. What exactly is "blowdown" energy? Is it mass flow? Is it heat? Is it pressure?

[dren]

Alonso has no options except McLaren, which is why he is currently pushing so hard to get rid of Honda.

Isn't Honda paying his salary, or a large chunk of it?

[godlameroso]

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

I follow this forum for a long time. Although I have experience modeling engines (including some turbocompound simulations), I dont feel I have the necessary knowledge to post, about F1 engines.

But you dont have any knowledge at all, but still, you just post bullshit after bullshit, and ruin all the topics over and over, for no reason. Its really a shame, because there are experts on the forum, with constructive posts, but you always ruin the interesting conversations.
Some days ago, it was the dual fuel BS, now the blowdown BS again. What exactly is "blowdown" energy? Is it mass flow? Is it heat? Is it pressure?

Blowdown is residual energy available to the turbine with wastegates open. What specifically is bullshit?

[etusch]

Also curious to know what changes Ilmor recommended. If that's the path they need to go down then go get some Pratt and Whitney guys on the payroll to work on the compressor and turbine efficiency. Hire some Tesla guys to work on the battery and control electronics.

How can you suggest American technology to F1? Don't you know Europe is the center of the F1?

+1
I think turbo and turbo engines Honda's weak point because they stayed away from these. This is still seeable at wtcc after so many years. And turbo is important for mgu-h efficiency.
I don't think Tesla has better knowledge about electric motor and CE. Maybe he could suggest that help taking from formula e teams.
I would like to see Honda working with Mazda for sparkless engine for bringing it to F1

[henry]

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

I follow this forum for a long time. Although I have experience modeling engines (including some turbocompound simulations), I dont feel I have the necessary knowledge to post, about F1 engines.

But you dont have any knowledge at all, but still, you just post bullshit after bullshit, and ruin all the topics over and over, for no reason. Its really a shame, because there are experts on the forum, with constructive posts, but you always ruin the interesting conversations.
Some days ago, it was the dual fuel BS, now the blowdown BS again. What exactly is "blowdown" energy? Is it mass flow? Is it heat? Is it pressure?

I think blowdown energy is the kinetic energy recovered by the turbine from the exhaust pulses when the wastegate is open. It provides a proportion of the drive power for the compressor and so reduces the power drain on the ES from the MGU-H. I don't know how big it is. Tommy Cookers suggests a trickle which is a hard number to put into an equation.