Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Wastegates have electronic control and they don't have to be wide open to have an impact on back pressure.

[Pedrohf]

Wazari confirmed that Honda sends electrical energy from the H to the ES, that to bypass the ES and send power directly from H to K and vice versa was difficult for them.

If they could they'd be able to exceed 4mj per lap. As the MGU-K is not limited by what it sends or receives to and from the MGU-H. The K can only send 2mj to the ES, but can probably skirt around this by sending it to the H, and having the H send it to the ES. Or maybe have the K send power to the H directly, and use the turbo in electric supercharger mode.

Maybe the extra power from reduced backpressure is enough to justify a persistent 80kW drag on the combustion engine. The number can be less depending on the blowdown contribution, which depends on the turbine, turbine inlet, and wastegates.

I follow this forum for a long time. Although I have experience modeling engines (including some turbocompound simulations), I dont feel I have the necessary knowledge to post, about F1 engines.

But you dont have any knowledge at all, but still, you just post bullshit after bullshit, and ruin all the topics over and over, for no reason. Its really a shame, because there are experts on the forum, with constructive posts, but you always ruin the interesting conversations.
Some days ago, it was the dual fuel BS, now the blowdown BS again. What exactly is "blowdown" energy? Is it mass flow? Is it heat? Is it pressure?

Blowdown is residual energy available to the turbine with wastegates open. What specifically is bullshit?

What kind of residual energy is that?

[godlameroso]

I follow this forum for a long time. Although I have experience modeling engines (including some turbocompound simulations), I dont feel I have the necessary knowledge to post, about F1 engines.

But you dont have any knowledge at all, but still, you just post bullshit after bullshit, and ruin all the topics over and over, for no reason. Its really a shame, because there are experts on the forum, with constructive posts, but you always ruin the interesting conversations.
Some days ago, it was the dual fuel BS, now the blowdown BS again. What exactly is "blowdown" energy? Is it mass flow? Is it heat? Is it pressure?

Blowdown is residual energy available to the turbine with wastegates open. What specifically is bullshit?

What kind of residual energy is that?

You're the engine expert, what happens to the exhaust gases when the wastegates are open? Show me why what I'm saying is bullshit.

[Pedrohf]

Blowdown is residual energy available to the turbine with wastegates open. What specifically is bullshit?

What kind of residual energy is that?

You're the engine expert, what happens to the exhaust gases when the wastegates are open?

Depending on the ammount of opening, some gases go through the wastegate, some gases go through the turbine, where they lose pressure, heat, and expand. - THERE'S GOTTA BE A PRESSURE DIFFERENCE TO RUN THE TURBINE.
But your post says: "turbo in electric supercharger mode", - Wastegate fully open to minimize pumping losses -, compressor driven by the MGU-K, helped by the magical blowdown energy, although all the gases are flowing via the wastegate.

Also.. what's exactly the point? save 80kW of exahust pumping losses, and use 80kW of kinetic energy + cable losses, + generator losses + motor losses + electronic losses?

[loner]

Also curious to know what changes Ilmor recommended.

its a famous pattern to have their own patent with or without outside consultant
the new concept is what took them extra time to finalising it. i think so ..

[godlameroso]

What kind of residual energy is that?

You're the engine expert, what happens to the exhaust gases when the wastegates are open?

Depending on the ammount of opening, some gases go through the wastegate, some gases go through the turbine, where they lose pressure, heat, and expand. - THERE'S GOTTA BE A PRESSURE DIFFERENCE TO RUN THE TURBINE.
But your post says: "turbo in electric supercharger mode", - Wastegate fully open to minimize pumping losses -, compressor driven by the MGU-K, helped by the magical blowdown energy, although all the gases are flowing via the wastegate.

Also.. what's exactly the point? save 80kW of exahust pumping losses, and use 80kW of kinetic energy + cable losses, + generator losses + motor losses + electronic losses?

How do you know you're only saving 80kW of exhaust pumping losses? Even if that figure is correct, the electrical systems have very little loss, much lower than using a gear or pulley to power a traditional supercharger. Not to mention reacting much faster, while being able to adjust MAP and EMP precisely at different rpms. In any case all of this is moot until Honda gets more out of the combustion.

[Pedrohf]

You're the engine expert, what happens to the exhaust gases when the wastegates are open?

Depending on the ammount of opening, some gases go through the wastegate, some gases go through the turbine, where they lose pressure, heat, and expand. - THERE'S GOTTA BE A PRESSURE DIFFERENCE TO RUN THE TURBINE.
But your post says: "turbo in electric supercharger mode", - Wastegate fully open to minimize pumping losses -, compressor driven by the MGU-K, helped by the magical blowdown energy, although all the gases are flowing via the wastegate.

Also.. what's exactly the point? save 80kW of exahust pumping losses, and use 80kW of kinetic energy + cable losses, + generator losses + motor losses + electronic losses?

How do you know you're only saving 80kW of exhaust pumping losses? Even if that figure is correct, the electrical systems have very little loss, much lower than using a gear or pulley to power a traditional supercharger. Not to mention reacting much faster, while being able to adjust MAP and EMP precisely at different rpms. In any case all of this is moot until Honda gets more out of the combustion.

This post is so ridiculous, I'll not waste my time answering all this nonsense.
You should be banned from posting, that's all.

[Pedrohf]

Depending on the ammount of opening, some gases go through the wastegate, some gases go through the turbine, where they lose pressure, heat, and expand. - THERE'S GOTTA BE A PRESSURE DIFFERENCE TO RUN THE TURBINE.
But your post says: "turbo in electric supercharger mode", - Wastegate fully open to minimize pumping losses -, compressor driven by the MGU-K, helped by the magical blowdown energy, although all the gases are flowing via the wastegate.

Also.. what's exactly the point? save 80kW of exahust pumping losses, and use 80kW of kinetic energy + cable losses, + generator losses + motor losses + electronic losses?

How do you know you're only saving 80kW of exhaust pumping losses? Even if that figure is correct, the electrical systems have very little loss, much lower than using a gear or pulley to power a traditional supercharger. Not to mention reacting much faster, while being able to adjust MAP and EMP precisely at different rpms. In any case all of this is moot until Honda gets more out of the combustion.

This post is so ridiculous, I'll not waste my time answering all this nonsense.
You should be banned from posting, that's all.

But still:
"only saving 80kw"? It doesn't take 80kW from the engine to rotate the turbocharger, most of the energy comes from the gas itself.
Why on earth would Honda, or any other sane manufacturer use the engine itself to power a turbocharger?
You have no idea at all how engines work. At all. Im serious, you should be banned from posting, because any engineer with minimum knowledge, looking for information about this engines, will see your dumb "car dude" posts, and walk away from this forum.

[ZakB]

Does anyone still believe that Honda can get on top of things?

[ArcticWolfie]

Does anyone still believe that Honda can get on top of things?

Only if they introduce a major upgrade upcoming weekend.

[henry]

How do you know you're only saving 80kW of exhaust pumping losses? Even if that figure is correct, the electrical systems have very little loss, much lower than using a gear or pulley to power a traditional supercharger. Not to mention reacting much faster, while being able to adjust MAP and EMP precisely at different rpms. In any case all of this is moot until Honda gets more out of the combustion.

This post is so ridiculous, I'll not waste my time answering all this nonsense.
You should be banned from posting, that's all.

But still:
"only saving 80kw"? It doesn't take 80kW from the engine to rotate the turbocharger, most of the energy comes from the gas itself.
Why on earth would Honda, or any other sane manufacturer use the engine itself to power a turbocharger?
You have no idea at all how engines work. At all. Im serious, you should be banned from posting, because any engineer with minimum knowledge, looking for information about this engines, will see your dumb "car dude" posts, and walk away from this forum.

You might like to have a look at viewtopic.php?t=20312 thread. It about blowdown.

[Icecreamer]

+ cable losses, + generator losses + electronic losses?

High voltage batteries/generator/el.motor are designed espesially to minimize the electric losses and the wires diameter (in other words to save the wires weight, and to reduce the heat losses caused by current).

[godlameroso]

How do you know you're only saving 80kW of exhaust pumping losses? Even if that figure is correct, the electrical systems have very little loss, much lower than using a gear or pulley to power a traditional supercharger. Not to mention reacting much faster, while being able to adjust MAP and EMP precisely at different rpms. In any case all of this is moot until Honda gets more out of the combustion.

This post is so ridiculous, I'll not waste my time answering all this nonsense.
You should be banned from posting, that's all.

But still:
"only saving 80kw"? It doesn't take 80kW from the engine to rotate the turbocharger, most of the energy comes from the gas itself.
Why on earth would Honda, or any other sane manufacturer use the engine itself to power a turbocharger?
You have no idea at all how engines work. At all. Im serious, you should be banned from posting, because any engineer with minimum knowledge, looking for information about this engines, will see your dumb "car dude" posts, and walk away from this forum.

You do realize that a turbine creates backpressure and that back pressure increases pumping losses right? Having a turbo there creates drag on the engine, that loss is always there. You claim to be an expert but show fundamental lack of understanding, and comically accuse me of not understanding. You're more than a little pathetic, even moreso for letting this get personal.

[henry]

What kind of residual energy is that?

You're the engine expert, what happens to the exhaust gases when the wastegates are open?

Depending on the ammount of opening, some gases go through the wastegate, some gases go through the turbine, where they lose pressure, heat, and expand. - THERE'S GOTTA BE A PRESSURE DIFFERENCE TO RUN THE TURBINE.
But your post says: "turbo in electric supercharger mode", - Wastegate fully open to minimize pumping losses -, compressor driven by the MGU-K, helped by the magical blowdown energy, although all the gases are flowing via the wastegate.

Also.. what's exactly the point? save 80kW of exahust pumping losses, and use 80kW of kinetic energy + cable losses, + generator losses + motor losses + electronic losses?

I think you misunderstand the kocation of the wastegates. They are not before the turbine, diverting gas away from it, that would be a waste. They are in the periphery of the turbine allowing the gasses to do work on the impeller and then exit without navigating the expansion route and so not building up back-pressure.

[Pedrohf]

This post is so ridiculous, I'll not waste my time answering all this nonsense.
You should be banned from posting, that's all.

But still:
"only saving 80kw"? It doesn't take 80kW from the engine to rotate the turbocharger, most of the energy comes from the gas itself.
Why on earth would Honda, or any other sane manufacturer use the engine itself to power a turbocharger?
You have no idea at all how engines work. At all. Im serious, you should be banned from posting, because any engineer with minimum knowledge, looking for information about this engines, will see your dumb "car dude" posts, and walk away from this forum.

You do realize that a turbine creates backpressure and that back pressure increases pumping losses right? Having a turbo there creates drag on the engine, that loss is always there. You claim to be an expert but show fundamental lack of understanding, and comically accuse me of not understanding. You're more than a little pathetic, even moreso for letting this get personal.

Yes, they create backpressure, but far from 80kW. You don't have a clue about turbocharged engine thermodynamics, and your posts divert the conversation to useless BS, that shouldn't happen.