2017 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa Francorchamps, 25-27 August

[fiohaa]

You must be crazy if you think Ferrari weren't dominant most of the time shumacher was driving after 1999. The ferrari was most of the time the best car to drive over a season. Alonso's years as WDC for renault are the only years i think ferrari was a bit behind, But this was only for nuances like michelin tyres and renault's super start off the line and their narrow angle engine which gave them an aero advantage. MS didn't have a second tier car at all. It was always a championship challenger. And this is why some of the ferrari years, his last set of WDC were boring to watch. He was utterly dominant in a top car.
No point in talking percentages. Delete MS mercedes years and then you see the true picture. Let's not taylor statistics. Hamilton is only 200 races in, let's just enjoy what he can do in the next 50 to 60 races if his career goes that far. No point in trying to diminish achievements. Senna and Shumacher racked up their stats in dominant cars just the same with factors such as #2 drivers, weak competition, and regulations that were so loose the performance gap in the field was much wider.

Well done for basically ignoring and not grasping one single thing I said. Not one. Well done.. top marks.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

............Unlike Alonso, who cries and runs away.

Fangio had a knack of understanding who is getting a great car and always jumped into one. He never contributed a great deal to build one. Senna did the same. Once McLaren's domination waned off, he jumped off to Williams. Vettel did the same (from Red Bull).

Niki Lauda was probably the first one, who knew how to contribute to build a good car and then drive it to win titles. Michael was the next one who went into an under performing team and gave his precious years to be part of laying foundation for a future success. Hamilton was the next one, though he did not anticipate anything, but was wilful part of grandeur being built (he took the punt).

I don't recall any other driver who really did what Niki or Michael did and to call someone like Alonso as a crybaby and runaway driver is just sour. Senna (McLaren) and Prost (Ferrari) did the same. You can't expect every driver to do what Niki and Michael did. So, that can't be a benchmark for every champion driver.

[Restomaniac]

There was an interesting conversation on SKY F1.

They commmented about Hamilton and how he will go down in history. He is going to have a record which puts him in the conversation every time they talk about the best ever.

They made a fair point in that we don't see it ATM as he is here and now but when he is gone from F1 he will leave a huge hole to fill. In great cars of not it still takes a driver with amazing skill to go level with Schumacher in 48 races less than the great man. I doubt he will get to MS's wins (I think he will be close) but it's obvious that the pole record is shortly going to be his and by the end of his career he will be miles ahead.

Obviously this is going into Ying Yang mode, but I have some gripes with these Hamilton glorifications....

Look at the past years where Hamilton got so many Pole positions being in the most dominant car ever, especially in Qualifying. He only had to fight his own team mate and not many other drivers as in the 80s 90s and 2000s. Given he is a good qualifier this number is just blown out of proportions. Also: the cars nowadays are bulletproof. Back in the days look how often the Ferrari of Michael broke down. There could so many more victories to his name. Not that Hamilton can do anything against that.

I seriously hope no one gets to touch Michaels victory record because the way he achieved it was magical. There are so many videos on Youtube showing him wrestling the car around really outdriving everyone by seconds!! per lap.

In the conversation was the point.
As for Schumacher, Ferrari for an example was by far the best in the field and his team mate was there to make up the numbers. Hardly surprising then that he got so many wins and poles.
Also at what point has Hamilton in his cars had the type of team mate Schumacher did in the Ferrari?

He has had Alonso, Button and Rosberg 2 who were already WDCs and 1 who became a WDC alongside him. The only 'inferior' driver he has ever partnered is Kovalainen. Put a driver like Barrichello in that Mercedes in 2014-16 and then tell him to not in anyway hold up the number 1 driver and you would see those 1 second gaps you were talking about.

Also let us remember that he is a trailblazer in a very caucasian sport. This in itself isn't an issue but when you look at the records he is now setting it is a testament to his single mindedness that the racial abuse he has sometimes taken haven't shaken him at all.

[Just_a_fan]

I can't see the FIA doing that, because that would widely be seen as influencing the championship in Ferrari's favor. Not to mention, all these rumors are based on the assumption that the spec Merc introduced violates the the 0.9 restriction.

Well, they have been called Ferrari International Assistance for a reason...

[Treble]

I can't see the FIA doing that, because that would widely be seen as influencing the championship in Ferrari's favor. Not to mention, all these rumors are based on the assumption that the spec Merc introduced violates the the 0.9 restriction.

Well, they have been called Ferrari International Assistance for a reason...

Oh pity, and do they permit Mercedes to burn oil for three years? Very particular way to advantage Ferrari.

[Sieper]

If Mercedes are in fact burning oil, and as much as 1,2 liter it would be best if the playing field gets leveled rather sooner then later. Although they have then just yet sacrificed an extra engine (to keep burning the 1.2 liter for the coming 5 / 6 races(or how long they can stretch that particular engine)) so forcing them on to a 0.9 liter burning engine just now would be extra detrimental, that would seem a bit unfair. On the other hand, they made that decision themselves for the purpose to achieve as much of an advantage as possible.

Does anybody have any idea how FIA can judge how much oil is being burned, and specifically, when? the customer spec engines do not have thee Q3 mode, nor the "overtake" (anti overtake) boost it seems.

[Vanja #66]

If I understood a text on Italian motorsport.com correctly, FIA will now ask all of the engines to use a maximum 0.9l of oil starting from Italy, because of what Mercedes did... It was supposed to be only for new specs, but now they'll demand this for every engine out there...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13150 ... burn-level

But then this comes up and negates it. Guess that's championship settled then...

[Sevach]

It's been suggested that the FIA will require Mercedes to make the customer engines the homologation engines and thus their Spa engines won't be considered to comply. If that is the case, does that mean that Mercedes have to introduce a new, newly compliant, engine and thus are being forced by the FIA to take a grid penalty...?

It's very likely that the engine doesn't need this much oil and would work just fine if required.
It might make tough to engage the super mode during the races though.

[Mandrake]

............Unlike Alonso, who cries and runs away.

Niki Lauda was probably the first one, who knew how to contribute to build a good car and then drive it to win titles. Michael was the next one who went into an under performing team and gave his precious years to be part of laying foundation for a future success. Hamilton was the next one, though he did not anticipate anything, but was wilful part of grandeur being built (he took the punt).

The Merc is where it is thanks to Nico and Michael. Hamilton benefitted from the work that was being carried before his arrival. In fact, many believe one of the reasons Merc is struggling this year is the lack of Nico's feedback.

[Treble]

In the italian motorsport they said that there was a word agreement between Merc and Fer to not bring a new engine before Monza. So everyone would have had the same rules with the last engine. I don't know how is accurate the news..

[GPR-A duplicate2]

............Unlike Alonso, who cries and runs away.

Niki Lauda was probably the first one, who knew how to contribute to build a good car and then drive it to win titles. Michael was the next one who went into an under performing team and gave his precious years to be part of laying foundation for a future success. Hamilton was the next one, though he did not anticipate anything, but was wilful part of grandeur being built (he took the punt).

The Merc is where it is thanks to Nico and Michael. Hamilton benefitted from the work that was being carried before his arrival. In fact, many believe one of the reasons Merc is struggling this year is the lack of Nico's feedback.

Once again I would re-iterate, gone are those days when a Driver was critical for the development of the car. WIth all kinds of sophisticated systems and technologies, a driver input is more desired. Mercedes is not struggling because of lack of Nico's feedback. They are struggling as they were forced to alter their car design philosophy due to regulation changes AND A RESURGENT Ferrari. Take Ferrari's challenge out of the equation, ala 2014-2016, Mercedes would still be dominating.

As for their car philosophy, it would evolve, just like it evolved from 2010 to 2013. By their own admission, they don't understand how to implement a high rake due to the longer and wider car (regulations) and hence, have lost the ability to play with rear suspension. They lose downforce if they try to put higher rake, hence their suspension has to be far stiffer than they like, which has caused headaches in tyre usage. They have overcome a lot of those initial challenges, but still they need more innovation to outperform Ferrari. So, these challenges have nothing to do with Nico not being there. Their 2017 challenger got into design work in 2015 and the construction started in 2016 (that is how Mercedes works). All the current technical challenges are primarily related how the car has been conceived and designed and even if Nico was there, it wouldn't have been any different.

Simple example: The W08 was overweight out of the box, could Nico have done anything for that? It was their designers' choice.

[Just_a_fan]

The Merc is where it is thanks to Nico and Michael. Hamilton benefitted from the work that was being carried before his arrival. In fact, many believe one of the reasons Merc is struggling this year is the lack of Nico's feedback.

Wow, so Michael, who retired 4 seasons ago and well before the current regs, made the current car so good. Wow, he really is a genius.

As for Nico, how "many believe" that? Just Hamilton haters or do some real Nico fans think it too?

Mercedes are "struggling" because Ferrari made some big leaps during the regs changes. Oh, and many teams would love to be "struggling" with their lead of the constructors' title race...

"haters gonna hate"

[WaikeCU]

The Merc is where it is thanks to Nico and Michael. Hamilton benefitted from the work that was being carried before his arrival. In fact, many believe one of the reasons Merc is struggling this year is the lack of Nico's feedback.

Wow, so Michael, who retired 4 seasons ago and well before the current regs, made the current car so good. Wow, he really is a genius.

As for Nico, how "many believe" that? Just Hamilton haters or do some real Nico fans think it too?

Mercedes are "struggling" because Ferrari made some big leaps during the regs changes. Oh, and many teams would love to be "struggling" with their lead of the constructors' title race...

"haters gonna hate"

Or it could just be because car characteristics have changed more than expected due to their solution of implementing a longer wheelbase for this season's technical regulation changes. Looking at 2015 and 2016, the car was very similar. Using the 2015 as a baseline to the 2016 car isn't such a leap compared to a 2016 car compared to 2017, which looked massively different.

[ClarkBT11]

Did anyone enjoy the race? Good close racing from start to finish, plenty of drama in the midfield. Mass and Gro had a good result thanks to Force India, 10 lap sprint finish thanks to the safety car giving the honey badger a chance to grab the podium again (no boot drinking this time! Did anyone else think Daniel was going to drench Webber on the podium?)
It was weird when Hamilton had that slow, high 1:50 lap just after Vettel pitted (first Pitstop) for the softs. Was he cooling the tyres or in the wrong engine mode? I'm sure when I was watching the sector times he lost nearly a second in the first alone.
Max's dad will be having talks with another team soon if that Renault engine keeps failing, Jos looks more pissed than Max does. I also felt sorry for all the Dutch fans, spending all that money to watch him race and didn't finish.
I can't wait for Monza less than a week away hopefully it'll be as emotional as this race and it'll be a cracker.

[AnotherAlex]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13150 ... burn-level

But then this comes up and negates it. Guess that's championship settled then...

That's very poor!
It looks like once again Mercedes have side-stepped the engine regulations.

Teams using the Mercedes customer engines don't appear to have access to the factory team's 'qualifying mode' so I would expect them, using fundamentally the same engine, to be compliant with the 0.9 l/100km limit when they take the latest spec.