Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Joseki]

Hasegawa:

- "Especially this time we have raised the low speed torque considerably and the low speed torque at the start and the start from the low speed corner is about as much as a mini car."

- "Since Spa-Francorchamps is not a place to use it so frequently because there are few low-speed corners (because it is a low-speed area), as performance does not go straight as it is, we assumed that the gain is about 0.1 seconds, but in fact I went even more.I think that I could go up to 11th place in the qualifying at such circuit thought that there was effect of spec 3.5. It was difficult to see because it is Belgium, but if this is Hungary the result is different I think that if you negotiate between Belgium and Italy, I think I can go to a good place in the race in the future. "

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... ndex_2.php

This article is proper damage limitation.
They twisted the truth (they lied about Vandoorne not having a tow in Q1), they celebrate the fact that Alonso had the 5th fastest speed with a tow for 2 kilometers, they said "Fernando's figures are wrong and our's are right" without explaining why, they downplayed the idiocy of the mapping problem in Q2 and they wrote that Spa's failure was "unexpected".

If this view is also shared by Honda I really hope that Fernando and McLaren can ditch them, this is a good attitude for losers.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=PlatinumZealot]
Once it is not atmospheric pressure or lower it is back pressure. That is pressure resisting free-flow. By nature, a turbine is not free flow.[/quote]

a turbine operating in blowdown conditions is free flow
there is no so-called back pressure ie the cycle-mean exhaust pressure above the turbine is notionally atmospheric
the turbine works because pressure in the blowdown period (to notionally atmospheric by bdc) is above n. atmospheric
(if of course the exhaust system etc scheme preserves these blowdown pulses for the turbine)

significant free power is recoverable by the turbine in this way
eg 6 -18% in the famously successful (mechanically supercharged) Wright 'Turbo-Compound' version of their Duplex Cyclone
eg c.8% in early tests by NACA on an NA engine

the real impediment is the thermodynamically disadvantageous flow choking (supersonic flow) inherent with the piston ICE's intermittent combustion
this disadvantage is reduced by raising exhaust pressure (density) due to the reduction in exhaust velocity

[fellowhoodlums]

I disagree with Joseki, you can enhance an engine performance without it having a higher straight line speed.

[Joseki]

I disagree with Joseki, you can enhance an engine performance without it having a higher straight line speed.

I know, but there's nothing to celebrate about the 5th fastest speed with a tow for 2 kilometers. Just the fact that they needed a tow to made it to Q3 is huge step backwards compared to last year. I find it really sad that some article are putting a positive spin on the situation, there's nothing positive about last weekend's performance of the engine.

[fellowhoodlums]

I disagree with Joseki, you can enhance an engine performance without it having a higher straight line speed.

I know, but there's nothing to celebrate about the 5th fastest speed with a tow for 2 kilometers. Just the fact that they needed a tow to made it to Q3 is huge step backwards compared to last year. I find it really sad that some article are putting a positive spin on the situation, there's nothing positive about last weekend's performance of the engine.

I think they have to defend themselves. Alonso has the media spotlight and is being unbalanced with the Honda improvements, then parking the car claiming engine issue.

[belldanndy]

Just wondering if all these Spec 3.5, 3.6, 4.0, 5.0 upgrade needs FIA approve first before actually construct it to use during race weekend? Thanks!

[J.A.W.]

a turbine operating in blowdown conditions is free flow
there is no so-called back pressure ie the cycle-mean exhaust pressure above the turbine is notionally atmospheric...

...significant free power is recoverable by the turbine in this way
eg 6 -18% in the famously successful (mechanically supercharged) Wright 'Turbo-Compound' version of their Duplex Cyclone

But T-C, wasn't the "Wright Turbo-Compound" AKA the 'Power-Recovery-Turbine (PRT)' engine..
..actually - better known, by the mechanics ('maintainers') as the 'Parts-Recovery-Turbine'(PRT) mill?
( & the Super-Constellation airliner thus powered, also disaparaged, as the 'World's Best 3-engined plane'..

Or sadly, somewhat like - the Honda F1 mill under discussion, in terms of output/servicability/fragility issues..

[Joseki]

Just wondering if all these Spec 3.5, 3.6, 4.0, 5.0 upgrade needs FIA approve first before actually construct it to use during race weekend? Thanks!

I'm pretty sure that even with no tokens the engines are still under some sort of homologation rule so the FIA must be informed.

[cyro_666]

If journalists are to be believed, they're actually planning to bring some kind of a spec 4 in Monza, but they're just assessing their options so far:
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3576 ... e-for-fp1/

[wuzak]

- 2015 (design problem, McLaren demanded this design
- 2016 (many progresses but our hands are tied with this the token system thing)
- 2017 (we're taking a big risk, few issues obviously I told you so! maybe the fix unlikely to be ready until Spanish GP in May)

I think the token system is getting more blame than it perhaps ought to have.

Ferrari, for example, changed their turbo and MGUH under the token system.

I guess the real problem was running out of tokens because they had to fix other things. Beyond reliability fixes, because those were supposed to be token free.

[Craigy]

Just wondering if all these Spec 3.5, 3.6, 4.0, 5.0 upgrade needs FIA approve first before actually construct it to use during race weekend? Thanks!

I'm pretty sure that even with no tokens the engines are still under some sort of homologation rule so the FIA must be informed.

Tokens still exist, they just don't have a limited seasonal budget any more.

The reason they still exist is to figure out the number of places you need to drop for each engine component change outwith the alloted 4 per season for the 6 subassemblies restricted in this way.

[Squid]

I believe the problem with the token system was not that it limited what Honda could do to their engine. The size zero engine concept itself was the limiting factor. What the token system was preventing was the development of a whole new concept necessary to make further gains, which is what we got only in 2017 after the token system was abandoned.

[ZakB]

They should have hired specialists from Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes. Seriously, i'm getting tired of all these Honda fans that come up with excuses about tokens and new concept. If I don't know what to do, I hire people to do it. It isn't that hard, it's just going to cost you a lot of money. Honda probably thought 'we're giving them 100 million yearly, so we can do whatever we want'. They are a big, big joke. I wasn't expecting wins this year, but lacking 80BHP compared to customer Mercedes, pffff.

[zxof]

Not trying to argue with you but seriously though:

- 2015 - Size zero concept fault our insider said apparently it's McLaren's demand.
- 2016 - token limitations
- 2017 - single cylinder's fault
- 2018 - McLaren fault, if only they didn't try to source other engines last season.
- 2019 - Zak's fault, if only he didnt try to get Yusuke got sacked just like what Ron did with Arai
- 2020 - If only Mclaren didnt demand Honda to pay 100mil/year we would've enough money to build good engine

I believe the problem with the token system was not that it limited what Honda could do to their engine. The size zero engine concept itself was the limiting factor. What the token system was preventing was the development of a whole new concept necessary to make further gains, which is what we got only in 2017 after the token system was abandoned.

[Joseki]

If I don't know what to do, I hire people to do it.

This is honestly the thing that puzzle me the most. Haas created a team from scratch hiring people from other teams, Ferrari was behind in 2014 and hired a lot of people from Mercedes.
Why Honda chose to start with a brand new team with basically no previous F1 experience is beyond me, it's such an obvious thing. It's the ABC of motorsport.