2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[jz11]

Switching to Renault is their worst option IMHO, not only Renault has lagged behind all this time performance wise, they don't seem to have the reliability either, and with a works Renault team and RB in the mix, getting "the best engine" would be near impossible, and then there is the financial aspect of course.

Seems like people still talk about this as a possibility only because Mercedes and Ferrari PUs are out of the question, and there just is nothing else to talk about than Renault.

Me personally, I would like McLaren to stick with Honda, and the reason is that Renault didn't seem to have any bright ideas of their own, they just seem to follow what others are doing, and hopefully have some bright idea and have minor improvements, but it doesn't seem to be the case with Honda, they do their own thing, disastrous it may be so far, but that might be the way to the breakthrough needed to get the upper edge on the top dogs quicker than just by following them, because by definition, that way they will always be lagging slightly behind.

Sticking with Honda doesn't mean they should keep quiet about failed promises, I think it is ok to be blaming them, and people are making a bigger deal out of it than it really is, because that is THE NEWS, and there isn't much else to talk about.

[RS200E]

+1 jz11

[Wazari]

Here are some points to ponder and if they have already been brought up, I apologize in advance as I will admit I do not read every post in the threads.

Based on McLaren's current financials, are they in a position to support a successful F1 campaign without a large infusion of cash every year? When a substantial portion of your team's payroll is paid by outside funds, what will happen to your staff size if this money goes away? (This has nothing to do with the driver's pay).

Also many have praised how good McLaren's chassis is. "Works" teams have a tremendous advantage in this area. The PU is an integral part of the chassis and being able to have engineers from both sides constantly communicate with each other to make both components "fit and work" with each other is a huge plus. This is an advantage that customer teams like FI and Williams do not enjoy. RBR has a very unique one-off relationship with Renault that I think will change now that Renault has its own team and I think will cause conflict with RBR in short time.

So if McLaren decides to leave Honda for possible short term gain, is it really a good long-term solution?

The politics of motorsports is my least favorite aspect of F1.

[Phil]

Good points Wazari. Exactly my sentiment too.

One has to wonder though what could explain the idea that McLaren apparently wants out of the Honda deal. Is it really the intention of McLaren to move away from Honda, or is the media focusing too much on what Alonso wants and feels would give him the best "short term gain" and reading too much into it?

If there is truth to the idea that McLaren does want out - the only way I could see it making sense (with the points you have raised, which are the same I have brought up) is if Honda leaves and has to pay McLaren for termination of that contract. The logic must be that McLaren feels that this money (whatever sum it may be, but it would have to be rather substantial to make any sense) would give them the opportunity to start fresh with another engine supplier and have better results which in turn might make them more attractive for sponsors.

Either way, I don't quite see that happening, not with a Renault engine. And I'm also rather doubtful if the wonder chassis that McLaren has supposedly built would work well using a different engine and them in a mere customer relationship. That chassis might just be as good due to the inherit characteristics of the Honda PU and how the McLaren car was built around it.

[Joseki]

Here are some points to ponder and if they have already been brought up, I apologize in advance as I will admit I do not read every post in the threads.

Based on McLaren's current financials, are they in a position to support a successful F1 campaign without a large infusion of cash every year? When a substantial portion of your team's payroll is paid by outside funds, what will happen to your staff size if this money goes away? (This has nothing to do with the driver's pay).

Also many have praised how good McLaren's chassis is. "Works" teams have a tremendous advantage in this area. The PU is an integral part of the chassis and being able to have engineers from both sides constantly communicate with each other to make both components "fit and work" with each other is a huge plus. This is an advantage that customer teams like FI and Williams do not enjoy. RBR has a very unique one-off relationship with Renault that I think will change now that Renault has its own team and I think will cause conflict with RBR in short time.

So if McLaren decides to leave Honda for possible short term gain, is it really a good long-term solution?

The politics of motorsports is my least favorite aspect of F1.

Wazari I have some questions for you too:

- At with points the 100m/y deal became less important than the lost sponsorships?

- Is a work deal worth the trade off of senior technical staff leaving the team because of the engine?


I'm asking you this because I've been told from a reliable source (the same source that back in January told me that the Honda engine was severely lacking both power and reliability on the dynos) that loss of sponsorships (both existing deals and possible future deal) and departures of senior staff figures are set in stone if McLaren doesn't switch engine for 2018.

The Honda deal could transform McLaren into Williams 2.0 the moment some guy in a suit back in Tokyo decides to pull the plug.




McLaren is set to lose something either way, they have to chose what is more important for their future, because I'm pretty sure that there are 0 chances of being WDC/WCC before 2021 either way.

[gdogg371]

The whole Mclaren-Honda story and the attitude of Mclaren and Alonso in general is getting boring. Mclaren have played their part in all of this, forcing Honda in too soon, being co responsible for going down the wrong design route etc etc. As for Alonso, this is just one poor decision in a career littered with them.

I don't know what Williams' contract situation is with Mercedes as a customer, but I'd quite like Honda to take their £100m a year and their works engines to the Paddy Lowe helmed Williams, where it would be both gratefully received and Honda given the opportunity to sort their house out without Boullier, Brown, Alonso and the English and Spanish press crucifying them every week.

A cash infused Williams and a fourth engine supplier in the sport is starting to look much more palatable than listening to Mclaren whinging their way to a Renault customer deal week by week...

[Andres125sx]

I really can´t imagine what Mclaren did in 2007 with Alonso, but it should be quite severe for him to prefer going to Renault when he had a valid contract with McLaren for 2008...

Err, the contract was evidently terminated by mutual agreement, because the team and Alonso no longer wanted to continue after what happened. As for what happened, well, it's rather well documented if you'd bother to read up on it. Basically things turned very bad when the driver started to blackmail his team/boss which is pretty much a big no-go.

I´ve finally read your looong post, and sincerely, can´t you summarize a little bit more?


This part is funny, you always say the same... "it was all ok until the spygate so it was all due to Alonso", but you keep ignoring Alonso doing that must have some reason. Or you really think Alonso blackmailed his team only because he´s that arrogant and got tired of equal treatment? Ok, I know, yes you do, even when...

1- Lewis Hamilton was Ron Dennis protege (after paying Lewis career since he was 12), so Ron was willing to see his protege winning.
2- McLaren is a british team with no british champion since James Hunt in 1976, and that´s a marketing bomb any F1 team would get excited about
3- McLaren admitted making "mistakes" with Alonso´s car in the decisive races of the season, overinflating his tires wich instantly made his car some tenths slower, enough to ensure Lewis would win without making safety compromises.
4- Even FIA admitted to send a stewart to McLaren garage (Alonso side) to ensure fair treatment
5- "We don´t race Kimi, we race Alonso". Ron Dennis.
6- Alonso accepted to break a valid contract with best team to drive a midfielder... wich means one of two things, you assume Alonso is plain stupid, or you assume Alonso got so tired about McLaren favouritism towards Lewis he though not even in best car he had any real chance to fight for the title.


But I know you will keep ignoring these facts and assume F1 is a fair sport with no political interests... but only while discussing about 2007

[Andres125sx]

F1 is a huge challenge and in my opinion, from the outside, managing Alonso's expectations have been as big an issue as the PU itself for McLaren.

Sorry but this is laughable Schuttelberg

Also, do you really think McLaren expectations and Alonso expectations are any different? I don´t, they´re the same, and they´re equally frustrated


I even think McLaren is not stopping Alonso from complaining simply because they would love to complain as much as he does, but they don´t have the excuse of being desperate in the cockpit while a poor Renault PU fly pass you, so they let him talk for the whole team

[Andres125sx]

There is no version of McLaren-Renault that convinces me. It screams mediocrity and that's not McLaren.

Why? RedBull is well of with Renault. Despite the problems with Ves, the engines run fine and they win races. Renault has a good history of treating their customers well and there is no strong Renault works team in sight.

Not so sure about this, maybe it was just Palmer performing well in Spa, but to me it looks like Renault is improving quite a lot. I wouldn´t bet for Renault staying as a midfielder in 2018

At the moment Alo is simply a waste of money for McLaren-Honda and McLaren-Honda is a waste of time for Alo.

So true...

[Andres125sx]

I honestly hope that they choose to let Alonso go, and he can then join Indy next year. At the same time, and more importantly for myself as a fan, I'd really like to see McLaren concentrate on the fundamentals which make a team strong, since they've been riding the "Honda is to blame" too far imo. Yes, they do not have a power unit capable of winning a GP, quite the opposite (worst 2017 spec on the grid). But they also need to analyze the size zero concept put on their partner, and determine ways to help on the chassis side (free up more room for more flexibility for the installation, increase cooling capacity, etc.). Letting Alonso go would also, maybe more importantly, take pressure off the team to develop and persue a more robust long term plan to get back to the top, allowing the business to function without the external noise caused by their "star performer". That would also allow them to being the search for sponsors (while I think Alonso is a brilliant driver I wouldn't want my company's name link with his behavior), solidifying cross-system processes, improving weak areas, and generally reestablishing the team post Dennis and Alonso. Even if they do not win a championship over the next three years, they will make good progress without the "win now" attitude, and should be able to close the gap as Red Bull have also managed.

Switching to Renault would mean the loss of funding to secure the third best engine...very bad deal from a business perspective, and our belove3d sport is nothing else but a business.

But that´s what they´re doing Charles!

This is not a short term project, this is a long term project in its third season wich should be showing some result in this or next seasons. But results are not victories, nobody is demanding victories or podiums at this point, but at least not being fly passed at the straights by 8th team like we saw at Spa I´ll repeat this because it is too serious to not highlight it, the 8th team of the WCC is so much faster than McHonda on their third season of the project they didn´t even need to open DRS to pass

The problem is not a "win now" attitude, the problem is they´re simply too far from the schedule to stick with the project without any more consideration. When a schedule is impossible to achieve you must analyse what´s wrong with your planning, and find a solution

Main problem is there´s no solution for this apart from praying Honda will improve dramatically

[McL-H]

Let's be honest here. I'm a huge fan of the driver Alonso, I think it is u debatable that he's F1 best. But he's cancerous for McLaren-Honda. Retiring a healthy car is not excuseable, especially when you make this amount of money. In any company, when someone's ego becomes bigger than the team, it's time to part ways. This is the case for Fernando as well. In my opinion, McLaren should terminate his contract immediately. Let Button finish the season and let's look for a succesful line-up for next year.

Last thing McLaren should do is try to retain Alonso bij choosing Renault engines. There is nothing to gain. They are even worse than Honda, considering the time they've had to develop while still developing mediocre and highly unreliable engines. Honda is the way to go for McLaren. They should stop criticising the Japanese in public and make the partnership work. In fact, Honda's development has been amazing this year. They introduced a whole new concept which caused a lot of problems, but since Baku they've made massive gains and I am confident Spec4 will be another major boost. I see them overtake Renault this year, and then we'll see what happens next. Anyway, Honda is McLaren's only chance.

[Andres125sx]

Be serious Phil, your antipathy towards Alonso is blinding you. Y

And your unconditional love to him is blinding you I would say. I think there is always more to the story than we know. So in reality there is nothing to talk about because no one here knows how Alonso or other drivers really are. That's why it is weird to be a fan of thes guys.

I´m a fan of none, I support Alonso wich is different, but I support the driver, not the person, as I support Lewis even when his personality out of the car is exactly the opposite I like on my friends but since I´m not going to talk with him ever, I only worry about his driving abilities, wich are awesome

Same with Alonso, I know he´s arrogant, but I really don´t care, it´s McLaren and Honda who must cope with him, and they not only cope with that, but pay him an astronomical salary, so they must be thinking it´s worth.


And as you say, there´s always more than we know. Apply that both ways. If we know all that list I posted earlier, imagine the things we will never know and made Alonso think breaking a valid contract with best team was the best option

[Squid]

I really can´t imagine what Mclaren did in 2007 with Alonso, but it should be quite severe for him to prefer going to Renault when he had a valid contract with McLaren for 2008...

Err, the contract was evidently terminated by mutual agreement, because the team and Alonso no longer wanted to continue after what happened. As for what happened, well, it's rather well documented if you'd bother to read up on it. Basically things turned very bad when the driver started to blackmail his team/boss which is pretty much a big no-go.

I´ve finally read your looong post, and sincerely, can´t you summarize a little bit more?


This part is funny, you always say the same... "it was all ok until the spygate so it was all due to Alonso", but you keep ignoring Alonso doing that must have some reason. Or you really think Alonso blackmailed his team only because he´s that arrogant and got tired of equal treatment? Ok, I know, yes you do, even when...

1- Lewis Hamilton was Ron Dennis protege (after paying Lewis career since he was 12), so Ron was willing to see his protege winning.
2- McLaren is a british team with no british champion since James Hunt in 1976, and that´s a marketing bomb any F1 team would get excited about
3- McLaren admitted making "mistakes" with Alonso´s car in the decisive races of the season, overinflating his tires wich instantly made his car some tenths slower, enough to ensure Lewis would win without making safety compromises.
4- Even FIA admitted to send a stewart to McLaren garage (Alonso side) to ensure fair treatment
5- "We don´t race Kimi, we race Alonso". Ron Dennis.
6- Alonso accepted to break a valid contract with best team to drive a midfielder... wich means one of two things, you assume Alonso is plain stupid, or you assume Alonso got so tired about McLaren favouritism towards Lewis he though not even in best car he had any real chance to fight for the title.


But I know you will keep ignoring these facts and assume F1 is a fair sport with no political interests... but only while discussing about 2007

The tinfoil is strong with this one.

Here, why don't you read this: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/10/20/a ... onspiracy/

Also, the FIA sent an independent person to Alonso's side of the garage because Alonso demanded it. He was so paranoid that McLaren would sabotage his car that he demanded the FIA send someone to ensure they didn't. Of course they didn't, but Alonso was full-blown paranoid at the time.

[McL-H]

Not so sure about this, maybe it was just Palmer performing well in Spa, but to me it looks like Renault is improving quite a lot. I wouldn´t bet for Renault staying as a midfielder in 2018

Renault has basically been the fourth team since Silverstone. It was just Palmer lacking a lot of pace. I agree with you, I don't think they will be a midfielder next year.. they've got all the resources of the top teams and are definitely a team to look out for.

[JonoNic]

Now Alonso says Mclaren Honda can be world champions in the future. Media taking us for fools now. Not worth it linking that news report here.