2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[dren]

Keeping Honda would be foolish. If you bought three Honda's in your life and they all performed badly and were not reliable, would Honda be your 4th car? Honda is pathetic, just like in their last era.

Toss out a relatively poor performing/unreliable PU for another one that's similarly unreliable, yet also get rid of millions of dollars in the process. Cross your fingers that the 6 top cars all DNF. Then maybe a podium is possible. Sounds like a great decision.

Six podiums, one win, working on 2018 engine for the whole year, yeah sounds like a terrible option compared to the Honda that is lacking 80BHP in comparison with customer Mercedes.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? With the updates to the Honda later this year, it should be pretty close to the Renault I would imagine. Reliability has been improved since the start of the season, too.

I don't know why you're mentioning Mercedes when the option we're debating is Renault.

[dren]

What on Earth do ppl here expect from Renault engines? That suddenly McLaren will be fighting Mercedes and Ferrari?

They will be 4th best team at best, dont see them beating redbull. Redbull have been using those Renault PUs since 2014. If Mclaren thinks Alonso will be happy with that, then they are unfortunately mistaken. Let's see what happens.

Some people seem to think that as long as it's anything but a Honda lump, Alonso will magically win races.

[Sayeman]

Keeping Honda would be foolish. If you bought three Honda's in your life and they all performed badly and were not reliable, would Honda be your 4th car? Honda is pathetic, just like in their last era.

Toss out a relatively poor performing/unreliable PU for another one that's similarly unreliable, yet also get rid of millions of dollars in the process. Cross your fingers that the 6 top cars all DNF. Then maybe a podium is possible. Sounds like a great decision.

Six podiums, one win, working on 2018 engine for the whole year, yeah sounds like a terrible option compared to the Honda that is lacking 80BHP in comparison with customer Mercedes.

That win and most of the podiums were fortuitous rather than earned.

[Jacinto]

What on Earth do ppl here expect from Renault engines? That suddenly McLaren will be fighting Mercedes and Ferrari?

They will be 4th best team at best, dont see them beating redbull. Redbull have been using those Renault PUs since 2014. If Mclaren thinks Alonso will be happy with that, then they are unfortunately mistaken. Let's see what happens.

I do agree with you. But, more likely, they will be 5th. Renault (works team) is getting better and better...

[ZakB]

Toss out a relatively poor performing/unreliable PU for another one that's similarly unreliable, yet also get rid of millions of dollars in the process. Cross your fingers that the 6 top cars all DNF. Then maybe a podium is possible. Sounds like a great decision.

Six podiums, one win, working on 2018 engine for the whole year, yeah sounds like a terrible option compared to the Honda that is lacking 80BHP in comparison with customer Mercedes.

That win and most of the podiums were fortuitous rather than earned.

And where were McLaren? Right, nowhere. Funny how everyone now acts like McLaren doesn't stand a chance with a Renault. If that's really the case, imagine how much more horsepower Honda needs to find to make McLaren beat the Renault teams, lol.

[godlameroso]

There's no guarantee that Renault can give them an engine that can get them on the podium either. Neither Red Bull, nor the works Renault team can get podiums unless something happens to the two top teams, not to mention Renault is as reliable as Honda. Ditching Honda would be a foolish knee jerk reaction, regardless of the economics involved, if the goal is to win, it'll happen with Honda before it happens with Renault.

Keeping Honda would be foolish. If you bought three Honda's in your life and they all performed badly and were not reliable, would Honda be your 4th car? Honda is pathetic, just like in their last era.

Honda has been underperforming for sure, but compared to Renault they do an amazing job imo. Look at the massive gains that have been made this season, how does that not show positive perspectives? What on Earth do ppl here expect from Renault engines? That suddenly McLaren will be fighting Mercedes and Ferrari? Not going to happen folks. McLaren is close to ending up like Williams. Personnel will leave if victories stay out of reach, and with Renault, that will surely be the case. With Honda, you have a collaberation that fits engine + chassis + fuel lubricants together. With Renault, you won't have that. McLaren's best bet remains Honda. They can overtake Renault this season and close the gap to the frontrunners during the winter. Renault is not even bringing new engine parts ffs.

Massive gains? Yeah, they were massive, because their engine was the biggest piece of crap we've ever seen. What on earth do people here expect from Honda engines? That suddenly McLaren will be fightning Mercedes and Ferrari? Not going to happen folks. You clearly have no idea how far Honda is behind.

I owned 7 Hondas at one point in time, I'm down to 4 Honda vehicles at the moment. As for how far behind they are, they're ~12kmh down on long straights. Honda has an advantage over Renault, Honda has McLaren to focus on the chassis, and Honda can focus on the power unit. Renault has to spread it's resources over both chassis and power unit, only Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes have the budget to not have to compromise in the same manner as everyone else.

[DiogoBrand]

Call me crazy, but I think it's more likely for Honda to match Ferrari and Mercedes than Renault. Renault had all the time the other teams had to develop their unit and still have always been behind them.

[Phil]

No way McLaren will walk from Honda. No way will Honda let McLaren walk. No way will Honda break the contract for Torro Rosso.

McLaren cant afford to walk away just like that. By staying with Honda, they remaim a high budget works-team...

Haha, you probably don't know who their shareholders are. McLaren will still be a high budget team, with or without Honda (hopefully without). Those 50 million pounds can be quickly earned back by getting back on the podium.

As others have mentioned, the level of investment by Honda is far greater. Just because McLaren has wealthy investors, doesn't mean they are ready to sink money into a bottom-less pit either. They have money because they are usually rather smart in what and where they invest in - not just for the fun of it.

The matter of fact is that ever since 2012, McLaren has been on a downward slope. They lost major sponsor Vodafone and haven't been able to replace them for various reasons: the market has decreased (popularity gone down), financial markets more difficult. And Ron Dennis was adamant not to sell below value (which may have been a mistake given the lack of sponsors). To make matters worse, the split up with Mercedes also hurt them far more than meets the eye; they lost lots of technical staff too. As a result, the years 2013 and beyond have been rather difficult...

Arguably, going to Honda wasn't such a bad thing. While the engine hasn't been great, the level of investment has paved the way for McLaren to build up high quality staff and apparently, if we are to believe them, build a fantastic chassis. How much this is actually due to the engine Honda has built, well is rather difficult to assess.

Who is to say that things would be much better with Renault? Mercedes and Ferrari units are off the table anyway. So it comes down to Honda with lots of money and Renault without.

[the EDGE]

Call me crazy, but I think it's more likely for Honda to match Ferrari and Mercedes than Renault. Renault had all the time the other teams had to develop their unit and still have always been behind them.

Their reliability is just as poor as Honda's too

[ZakB]

No way McLaren will walk from Honda. No way will Honda let McLaren walk. No way will Honda break the contract for Torro Rosso.

McLaren cant afford to walk away just like that. By staying with Honda, they remaim a high budget works-team...

Haha, you probably don't know who their shareholders are. McLaren will still be a high budget team, with or without Honda (hopefully without). Those 50 million pounds can be quickly earned back by getting back on the podium.

As others have mentioned, the level of investment by Honda is far greater. Just because McLaren has wealthy investors, doesn't mean they are ready to sink money into a bottom-less pit either. They have money because they are usually rather smart in what and where they invest in - not just for the fun of it.

The matter of fact is that ever since 2012, McLaren has been on a downward slope. They lost major sponsor Vodafone and haven't been able to replace them for various reasons: the market has decreased (popularity gone down), financial markets more difficult. And Ron Dennis was adamant not to sell below value (which may have been a mistake given the lack of sponsors). To make matters worse, the split up with Mercedes also hurt them far more than meets the eye; they lost lots of technical staff too. As a result, the years 2013 and beyond have been rather difficult...

Arguably, going to Honda wasn't such a bad thing. While the engine hasn't been great, the level of investment has paved the way for McLaren to build up high quality staff and apparently, if we are to believe them, build a fantastic chassis. How much this is actually due to the engine Honda has built, well is rather difficult to assess.

Who is to say that things would be much better with Renault? Mercedes and Ferrari units are off the table anyway. So it comes down to Honda with lots of money and Renault without.

"We can't afford not to be on the podium. It's a big decision that has lots of elements to it and economics are one. But fortunately we have extremely committed shareholders which means we can make a sporting decision and deal with the economics."

They simply want to perform and they don't see that happening with Honda. They know everything, while we see and hear everything from the outside. If they are willing to say goodbye to all the money, it shows how incapable Honda actually is. They created three crap engines and people in here still expect that everything will work out fine. Someone should calculate how much money they lost thanks to Honda. McLaren got their aero department on track with incredible development and it's time to switch to a decent engine. Renault has been working this whole year on the engine for 2018 and i'm pretty sure they told McLaren what they can expect.

[Mad]

"We can't afford not to be on the podium. It's a big decision that has lots of elements to it and economics are one. But fortunately we have extremely committed shareholders which means we can make a sporting decision and deal with the economics."

They simply want to perform and they don't see that happening with Honda. They know everything, while we see and hear everything from the outside. If they are willing to say goodbye to all the money, it shows how incapable Honda actually is. They created three crap engines and people in here still expect that everything will work out fine. Someone should calculate how much money they lost thanks to Honda. McLaren got their aero department on track with incredible development and it's time to switch to a decent engine. Renault has been working this whole year on the engine for 2018 and i'm pretty sure they told McLaren what they can expect.

McLaren can expect what Redbull is experiencing right now, Frustration. 2016 PU was a great improvement over the 2015 one and it wasn't crap. And you keep saying everything will work out with Renault, well how do you know? You are as clueless as anyone here. Honda have more than compensated for the lack of sponsorship. Unfortunately Alonso's "I need win now! NOW!" mentality has made the relationship beyond toxic between McLaren and Honda. When you see Boullier and Brown running back and forth in the paddock to keep him happy you know how much influence he has on the team.

[ZakB]

"We can't afford not to be on the podium. It's a big decision that has lots of elements to it and economics are one. But fortunately we have extremely committed shareholders which means we can make a sporting decision and deal with the economics."

They simply want to perform and they don't see that happening with Honda. They know everything, while we see and hear everything from the outside. If they are willing to say goodbye to all the money, it shows how incapable Honda actually is. They created three crap engines and people in here still expect that everything will work out fine. Someone should calculate how much money they lost thanks to Honda. McLaren got their aero department on track with incredible development and it's time to switch to a decent engine. Renault has been working this whole year on the engine for 2018 and i'm pretty sure they told McLaren what they can expect.

McLaren can expect what Redbull is experiencing right now, Frustration. 2016 PU was a great improvement over the 2015 one and it wasn't crap. And you keep saying everything will work out with Renault, well how do you know? You are as clueless as anyone here. Honda have more than compensated for the lack of sponsorship. Unfortunately Alonso's "I need win now! NOW!" mentality has made the relationship beyond toxic between McLaren and Honda. When you see Boullier and Brown running back and forth in the paddock to keep him happy you know how much influence he has on the team.

So money equals succes? The next two years we'll still suck, so here's money to shut your mouth. IAre you really comparing the Renault problems with the ones Honda having? What are you smoking.

And you keep saying everything will work out with Renault, well how do you know?

You'll never know. What we do know is that Renault is miles ahead of Honda.

Unfortunately Alonso's "I need win now! NOW!" mentality has made the relationship beyond toxic between McLaren and Honda. When you see Boullier and Brown running back and forth in the paddock to keep him happy you know how much influence he has on the team.

You actually think Boullier and Brown are fine with the situation? Honda are just a bunch of amateurs and that's why McLaren wants to leave them as soon as possible.

I suggest that you visit the Honda topic, where you can read that Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes spend much more money on the development of the engine.

One can see the same sort of thinking going on in Japan quite often and I would argue that this is actually the biggest problem that Honda faces in Formula 1. One simply cannot compete if one does not have the right kind of talent, and finding that sort of talent within one single nation is very difficult. Honda only seems to use Japanese people, and it has very few foreign research and development engineers. They are also operating in Japan, out of the main vortex of F1 development, and so new ideas take longer to filter through. This is a problem for all non-British teams (although there is a mini-cluster of expertise around Ferrari in Italy) because hiring in the right people is more difficult. This is why Scuderia Toro Rosso now seems to have 140 people (about a third of its staff) working in the UK.

[Jacinto]

"We can't afford not to be on the podium. It's a big decision that has lots of elements to it and economics are one. But fortunately we have extremely committed shareholders which means we can make a sporting decision and deal with the economics."

They simply want to perform and they don't see that happening with Honda. They know everything, while we see and hear everything from the outside. If they are willing to say goodbye to all the money, it shows how incapable Honda actually is. They created three crap engines and people in here still expect that everything will work out fine. Someone should calculate how much money they lost thanks to Honda. McLaren got their aero department on track with incredible development and it's time to switch to a decent engine. Renault has been working this whole year on the engine for 2018 and i'm pretty sure they told McLaren what they can expect.

McLaren can expect what Redbull is experiencing right now, Frustration. 2016 PU was a great improvement over the 2015 one and it wasn't crap. And you keep saying everything will work out with Renault, well how do you know? You are as clueless as anyone here. Honda have more than compensated for the lack of sponsorship. Unfortunately Alonso's "I need win now! NOW!" mentality has made the relationship beyond toxic between McLaren and Honda. When you see Boullier and Brown running back and forth in the paddock to keep him happy you know how much influence he has on the team.

Red Bull has been frustrated with Renault since 2014. There is a reason why Red Bull is powered by "Tag Heuer" engines...

[Sayeman]

So money equals succes? The next two years we'll still suck, so here's money to shut your mouth. IAre you really comparing the Renault problems with the ones Honda having? What are you smoking.

And you keep saying everything will work out with Renault, well how do you know?

You'll never know. What we do know is that Renault is miles ahead of Honda.

Unfortunately Alonso's "I need win now! NOW!" mentality has made the relationship beyond toxic between McLaren and Honda. When you see Boullier and Brown running back and forth in the paddock to keep him happy you know how much influence he has on the team.

You actually think Boullier and Brown are fine with the situation? Honda are just a bunch of amateurs and that's why McLaren wants to leave them as soon as possible.

I suggest that you visit the Honda topic, where you can read that Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes spend much more money on the development of the engine.

One can see the same sort of thinking going on in Japan quite often and I would argue that this is actually the biggest problem that Honda faces in Formula 1. One simply cannot compete if one does not have the right kind of talent, and finding that sort of talent within one single nation is very difficult. Honda only seems to use Japanese people, and it has very few foreign research and development engineers. They are also operating in Japan, out of the main vortex of F1 development, and so new ideas take longer to filter through. This is a problem for all non-British teams (although there is a mini-cluster of expertise around Ferrari in Italy) because hiring in the right people is more difficult. This is why Scuderia Toro Rosso now seems to have 140 people (about a third of its staff) working in the UK.

Well let's see what happens, maybe it's all just a ruse to make Honda speed up their development. Fernando told us yesterday about appointments and meetings in Japan and today they are meeting with Renault. Maybe Mclaren is as clueless as we are about the whole situation. Now they have a great chassis and crap engine, when Honda leaves with their money, it will be crap engine in a crap chassis.

[Marti_EF3]

Yeah, and Renault simply by workign on a new 2018 engine it will be a beast that could beat Ferrari and Mercedes. That`s the same dream as saying Honda will catch Mercedes PU next year... No guarantees with Renault going on a new design for 2018, and you want to be a customer instead a works team... no way it's gona be a good decision... But anyway, if McLaren switch to Renault next year, they will eat their own crap if the Honda PU becomes competitve and RBR get it without pain for 2019. That will be a big LOL