2021 Engine thread

[AJI]

Methanol? Why not nitro?

I hope you're watching this thread Mr Brawn!

A) Mr Brawn does not write the rules
B) pretty sure he was being sarcastic

A) Hey, thanks so much for the info, I didn't know that.
B) You think?
C) Now THAT is sarcasm!

[Cold Fussion]

Seems like a ton of money can be saved by mass production instead of dumping it into reliability engineering and maintenance.

Is this really the case? Would it not be the similar in engineering design cost to design a component on the bleeding edge of performance to one set of reliability requirements to another?

[morrisond]

Seems like a ton of money can be saved by mass production instead of dumping it into reliability engineering and maintenance.

Is this really the case? Would it not be the similar in engineering design cost to design a component on the bleeding edge of performance to one set of reliability requirements to another?

Not really - if it were one PU per race - you could design to tighter limits - get closer to the line as the cost of having a failure would not be as onerous, especially if F1 went back to the 80's and only counted points from x number of races.

I think it was your best 10 out of 16 back then - that might be a little extreme now but how about 18 out of 21, allow teams to get closer to the bleeding edge. You should be able to get a few free passes if your reliability isn't perfect. This is not Endurance racing.

[Jolle]

Seems like a ton of money can be saved by mass production instead of dumping it into reliability engineering and maintenance.

Is this really the case? Would it not be the similar in engineering design cost to design a component on the bleeding edge of performance to one set of reliability requirements to another?

Not really - if it were one PU per race - you could design to tighter limits - get closer to the line as the cost of having a failure would not be as onerous, especially if F1 went back to the 80's and only counted points from x number of races.

I think it was your best 10 out of 16 back then - that might be a little extreme now but how about 18 out of 21, allow teams to get closer to the bleeding edge. You should be able to get a few free passes if your reliability isn't perfect. This is not Endurance racing.

Again, you can't compare the 80ies engines with the level of precision engineering now. Back then you had to play it safe, an engine block could and would be rebuild over and over again (McLaren-TAG, 28 engines in 4 ½ years for the two cars combined!). If they would go to one PU a race, Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari would have to go from one PU a week to one a day. The logistics are close to impossible.

[AJI]

Again, you can't compare the 80ies engines with the level of precision engineering now. Back then you had to play it safe, an engine block could and would be rebuild over and over again (McLaren-TAG, 28 engines in 4 ½ years for the two cars combined!). If they would go to one PU a race, Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari would have to go from one PU a week to one a day. The logistics are close to impossible.

You keep citing TAG as an 80’s example, but how about a more modern comparison. Renault produced 1,271 engines for the V8 era. 683 for the track and 588 for the dyno!!! Sure, the PU is more complex, but I don’t think 1 PU per race weekend is too much to ask...

[Jolle]

Again, you can't compare the 80ies engines with the level of precision engineering now. Back then you had to play it safe, an engine block could and would be rebuild over and over again (McLaren-TAG, 28 engines in 4 ½ years for the two cars combined!). If they would go to one PU a race, Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari would have to go from one PU a week to one a day. The logistics are close to impossible.

You keep citing TAG as an 80’s example, but how about a more modern comparison. Renault produced 1,271 engines for the V8 era. 683 for the track and 588 for the dyno!!! Sure, the PU is more complex, but I don’t think 1 PU per race weekend is too much to ask...

Because people keep saying “yeah but in the eighties” at the beginning of the V8 period there were around eight or ten manufacturers, at the end just three. Something was wrong.

[AJI]

Because people keep saying “yeah but in the eighties” at the beginning of the V8 period there were around eight or ten manufacturers, at the end just three. Something was wrong.

Sure, but TAG is the outlier. They probably produced the least amount of engines during the mid 80’s because they only supplied 1 team, what they delivered to McLaren was good enough to win championships, and Ron Dennis was well known for not spending a cent more than necessary. I remember an anecdote about RD making Prost pay for an engine he blew-up in qualifying!
We know for a fact that in the mid 80’s Renault often melted 1 engine just for qualifying, so it’s not unrealistic to make the assumption that Lotus could have used 28 engines in Senna’s car alone, just for the 1985 season..? Okay, this example is also an outlier, but I think you get my point. 1 PU per race-weekend is not an unreasonable target for 2021 if we want to get rid of the ridiculous grid penalty system.

The GFC is generally cited as the reason for manufacturers leaving F1, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that those manufacturers also produced terrible engines...

[Jolle]

Because people keep saying “yeah but in the eighties” at the beginning of the V8 period there were around eight or ten manufacturers, at the end just three. Something was wrong.

Sure, but TAG is the outlier. They probably produced the least amount of engines during the mid 80’s because they only supplied 1 team, what they delivered to McLaren was good enough to win championships, and Ron Dennis was well known for not spending a cent more than necessary. I remember an anecdote about RD making Prost pay for an engine he blew-up in qualifying!
We know for a fact that in the mid 80’s Renault often melted 1 engine just for qualifying, so it’s not unrealistic to make the assumption that Lotus could have used 28 engines in Senna’s car alone, just for the 1985 season..? Okay, this example is also an outlier, but I think you get my point. 1 PU per race-weekend is not an unreasonable target for 2021 if we want to get rid of the ridiculous grid penalty system.

The GFC is generally cited as the reason for manufacturers leaving F1, but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that those manufacturers also produced terrible engines...

And what if you blow that one PU for the weekend? The only way to get rid of grid penalties is to skip the cap on the amount of engines and gearboxes all together. It's very difficult to have some kind of middle ground.

[krisfx]

Again, you can't compare the 80ies engines with the level of precision engineering now. Back then you had to play it safe, an engine block could and would be rebuild over and over again (McLaren-TAG, 28 engines in 4 ½ years for the two cars combined!). If they would go to one PU a race, Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari would have to go from one PU a week to one a day. The logistics are close to impossible.

You keep citing TAG as an 80’s example, but how about a more modern comparison. Renault produced 1,271 engines for the V8 era. 683 for the track and 588 for the dyno!!! Sure, the PU is more complex, but I don’t think 1 PU per race weekend is too much to ask...

Because people keep saying “yeah but in the eighties” at the beginning of the V8 period there were around eight or ten manufacturers, at the end just three. Something was wrong.

The engine formula was wrong. Engine downsizing in manufacturers killed the need for V8s imo.

[AJI]

And what if you blow that one PU for the weekend? The only way to get rid of grid penalties is to skip the cap on the amount of engines and gearboxes all together. It's very difficult to have some kind of middle ground.

Then you start from pit lane. One weekend, one PU.
There needs to be some sort of incentive to only use a single unit or the works teams will turn up with 10 per car every race!

[Jolle]

And what if you blow that one PU for the weekend? The only way to get rid of grid penalties is to skip the cap on the amount of engines and gearboxes all together. It's very difficult to have some kind of middle ground.

Then you start from pit lane. One weekend, one PU.
There needs to be some sort of incentive to only use a single unit or the works teams will turn up with 10 per car every race!

Then why not the same kind of rules like GB's? PU has to run for five GP's straight, if it fails you get a penalty at that GP, if you fail to finish you may put in a new one without penalty.

[AJI]

Then why not the same kind of rules like GB's? PU has to run for five GP's straight, if it fails you get a penalty at that GP, if you fail to finish you may put in a new one without penalty.

Why complicate things? 1 weekend, 1 PU. I'll even throw in a gear box!
- It's scalable
- There's no difference in staff (possibly even less staff?)
- It's easy for EVERYONE to understand
- There's an implication that every team starts each weekend on level ground
- If you blow a PU in the current race weekend it doesn't affect the following race weekend

Thoughts?

[hurril]

Then why not the same kind of rules like GB's? PU has to run for five GP's straight, if it fails you get a penalty at that GP, if you fail to finish you may put in a new one without penalty.

Why complicate things? 1 weekend, 1 PU. I'll even throw in a gear box!
- It's scalable
- There's no difference in staff (possibly even less staff?)
- It's easy for EVERYONE to understand
- There's an implication that every team starts each weekend on level ground
- If you blow a PU in the current race weekend it doesn't affect the following race weekend

Thoughts?

Is there a punishment that weekend though?

[Zynerji]

Not if you were to reuse last races engine...

[AJI]

Then why not the same kind of rules like GB's? PU has to run for five GP's straight, if it fails you get a penalty at that GP, if you fail to finish you may put in a new one without penalty.

Why complicate things? 1 weekend, 1 PU. I'll even throw in a gear box!
- It's scalable
- There's no difference in staff (possibly even less staff?)
- It's easy for EVERYONE to understand
- There's an implication that every team starts each weekend on level ground
- If you blow a PU in the current race weekend it doesn't affect the following race weekend

Thoughts?

Is there a punishment that weekend though?

If you blow an engine prior to the race you start from pit lane.
If you blow it during the race you don't finish.
If you blow it as you cross the finish line you are one lucky bastard!