Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

[Project Four]

Have I missed something, or has Renault been silent throughout this seamy affair?

No true Renault also have been silent,

[Tom]

Sorry guys, thought we were hating (or defending?) max here, not attacking the US.

Frankly now the German and Dutch motorsport groups have spoken out against Max he has little chance, thats 4 major car companies and 2 national motorsport bodies publicly demanding his removal from office, no one is really defending him, not even Bernie.

I would also like to point out, ! are better than ... but I personally like ?
Mind you, they're all so damn good.

[Rob W]

I find this worrying and I would have thought that this could equally be applied to him and his family, if not more so.

How so? Factually, Mosley was not, nor never, a Nazi supporter. He's never done anything which could be construed as being a supporter either - at least that I've seen. Moreso, being a supporter of a unionist party is not evidence of being a Nazi at all. It it were then it would be fair to say: Labour supporters are more Nazi-ish than those to their political right - which we know is not true.

Regarding Merc/BMW - two companies who worked with and for the Nazi leaders and exist in some form today because of their willingness to take part in those business dealings (altho, to be fair, it was probably under some duress). They can distance themselves from it all they like but they are possibly motivated to do so so much because of guilt about their own history. They would do well in PR terms to keep their statements well clear of the concentration-camp references.

McLaren were charged and fined $100M for bringing the sport into disrepute

They were fined for cheating. The $100M reflects what the WMC assessed as the benefit they gained from possessing Ferrari's valuable technical info as well as a punitive amount to punish them and deter others from doing the same. They also did it to prevent the teams who did play by the rules from taking legal action against the FIA to redistribute the earnings they would argue they were 'technically' denied by McLaren's cheating assisted performances.

Max, on the other hand, has in some ways bought the FIA and F1 into disrepute - but since he can be stood down/voted out that really is their only avenue against him available.

R

[Rob W]

... assume prostitution IS illegal in GB?

I don't think so. Even if it were, it's not the thing that'll sink Max. It's that evidence of lewd conduct that looks bad for him.

R

[riff_raff]

Who cares if it was illegal? It looks bad for F1. And I don't know why the big money sponsors aren't screaming for Max's head on a platter. Maybe they are privately, but they're not making a big stink about it publicly.

Max is a lawyer (or barrister as they're referred to in the UK?). I'm sure right now he's looking for a short rope and a tall chair. Because he's well aware of how much financial damage he's brought down upon the dozens of multi-million dollar corporate sponsors in F1. These corporate sponsors have armies of lawyers on retainer, and defending against all of these lawsuits will easily bankrupt even a rich guy like Mosley.

From the FIA Sporting code, ch. XI, para. 151:
"c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.

[Project Four]

I find this worrying and I would have thought that this could equally be applied to him and his family, if not more so.

How so? Factually, Mosley was not, nor never, a Nazi supporter. He's never done anything which could be construed as being a supporter either - at least that I've seen. Moreso, being a supporter of a unionist party is not evidence of being a Nazi at all. It it were then it would be fair to say: Labour supporters are more Nazi-ish than those to their political right - which we know is not true.

Regarding Merc/BMW - two companies who worked with and for the Nazi leaders and exist in some form today because of their willingness to take part in those business dealings (altho, to be fair, it was probably under some duress). They can distance themselves from it all they like but they are possibly motivated to do so so much because of guilt about their own history. They would do well in PR terms to keep their statements well clear of the concentration-camp references.

The point was that Mosley’s father was the leader of the British Union of Fascists and imprisoned during the Second World War due to his connections with Nazi Germany. Therefore IMHO there is just as much history within his family with connections to Nazi Germany as within BMW and Mercedes history.

I therefore believe and stated that it is wrong that he should bring reference to their history, without taking into context his own history. Although I do agree that the sins of father should not be held against their sons, it is just that I totally disagree with his statement and the line of defense he has taken.

There could be a debate about the ‘Union Movement’ party which Sir Oswald Mosley formed and which Max Mosley was involved with and also campaigned for his father, as to whether this although not a Nazi party was a Far-Right party, but this is pointless and was not the basis of my initial statement.

McLaren were charged and fined $100M for bringing the sport into disrepute

They were fined for cheating. The $100M reflects what the WMC assessed as the benefit they gained from possessing Ferrari's valuable technical info as well as a punitive amount to punish them and deter others from doing the same. They also did it to prevent the teams who did play by the rules from taking legal action against the FIA to redistribute the earnings they would argue they were 'technically' denied by McLaren's cheating assisted performances.

Max, on the other hand, has in some ways bought the FIA and F1 into disrepute - but since he can be stood down/voted out that really is their only avenue against him available.

R

McLaren breached article 151 (c) of the International Sporting Code. The article states:

Any Fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport in generally

I Agree that Mclaren cheated and yes they were rightly punished (although do not agree with the level of punishment). They were charged and found guilty of breaching article 151 (c) and as I stated they were punished for bringing the interest of Motor Sport into disrepute.

Max Mosley actions, although not fraudulent, are prejudicial to the interest of Motor Sport. If the leader of FIA is asked not to attend a major F1 event, if past world champions make statements on the news about his actions, if motoring organisations state that he should resign, if major motor manufactures condone his actions and as soon as he becomes the news story and the lead story on TV news and not the actions of Ferrari, BMW, Hamilton, Kimi, Massa then his actions have brought the sport into disrepute. There is no reason why he can not be charged with breaching article 151 (c).

[donskar]

Thank you, riff_raff:

From the FIA Sporting code, ch. XI, para. 151:
"c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.

Anyone think Max is innocent of the above? Forget Nazis, US bashing, legal/illegal prostitution, Puritans, and Sodom and Gomorrah. Is he innocent of the above?

Worst case for international auto racing: Max somehow surviving. IMHO that is unthinkable.

Thank god there's a RACE tomorrow.

[Rob W]

...Anyone think Max is innocent of the above? Forget Nazis, US bashing, legal/illegal prostitution, Puritans, and Sodom and Gomorrah. Is he innocent of the above?

This is sort of irrelevant. Max isn't a competitor and so isn't judged by the sporting code that teams are for a start. His role, duties and obligations will be clearly described in the constitution of the FIA. But, for sure, it is common for the senior people in any body of this sort to be expected to maintain higher standards than the bare minimum of 'legal activities' - for sponsorship, moral and respect reasons.

Max would seem to have fallen well short of the level expected in this case. However, an important part of replacing someone in his position centres around being able to find someone qualified to step into the role. The FIA has a large problem in this regard. Them being so at the beckoning call of FOM means they have to find the person with the skill and knowledge to undertake the general role but also to know how to and what is appropriate in dealing with FOM.

R

[ben_watkins]

Well getting back on topic..


The American Automobile Association want Max to step down..

http://www.f1technical.net/news/8717

"After careful consideration, AAA has conveyed to Mr Mosley that it would be in the best interest of all concerned if he were to step down."

[Rob W]

Who cares if it was illegal? It looks bad for F1. And I don't know why the big money sponsors aren't screaming for Max's head on a platter.

For sure - this is a good point. Sponsors however don't really have a say. They merely speak through the teams they support (unless they are the team as in Toyota's case). I think sponsors etc are just taking a wait-and-see approach. It's easy to come out swinging but generally better left to someone else - we don't know all the details and slating Max could backfire if he ends up staying on for six months or until a replacement can be found. Worse yet, he could end up working for Bernie at the organisational end of things - in which case you'd really have been better to not be at the front of a lynch mob.

Max is a lawyer (or barrister as they're referred to in the UK?).

Generally: Barrister = court, Solicitor = not in court. They're the two main specialties of law in the common law system (and maybe some others also)

Because he's well aware of how much financial damage he's brought down upon the dozens of multi-million dollar corporate sponsors in F1.

Probably none at all. In-fact I bet the scandal aspect of it has raised a bit of interest (for all the wrong reasons granted) of non-F1 fans through it being reported in mainstream newspapers. I'm not sure you could quantify the loss of business over people being so disgusted with it all - probably 0.00001% of all viewers. Some sponsors may take a different view but, generally, the level of involvement an F1 sponsorship entails wouldn't be shaken by something like this. They are certain to keep their eye on the main prize - global publicity through association with a leading sport series (one which personifies technology, perfection, competition and can-do ingenuity). A bit of S&M probably wont make anyone leave.

R

[donskar]

Rob W wrote:
Probably none at all. In-fact I bet the scandal aspect of it has raised a bit of interest (for all the wrong reasons granted) of non-F1 fans through it being reported in mainstream newspapers. I'm not sure you could quantify the loss of business over people being so disgusted with it all - probably 0.00001% of all viewers. Some sponsors may take a different view but, generally, the level of involvement an F1 sponsorship entails wouldn't be shaken by something like this. They are certain to keep their eye on the main prize - global publicity through association with a leading sport series (one which personifies technology, perfection, competition and can-do ingenuity). A bit of S&M probably wont make anyone leave.

If I might inject a gram or two of objectivity into this thread . . .
I played a small role in Compaq's involvement in F1. There were MANY detailed discussions about the possible repercussions of Compaq's sponsorship. Lots of "what ifs" were raised and discussed to death. Committing many millions of $ takes many levels of buy-in and CYA (sorry, is that srictly an Americanism? "Cover Your A**").

IF Max leaves quietly and soon, I see no long-term impact. Right now, this situation is still fairly well contained, but IF he brazens it out and hangs on despite a growing backlash, THEN we might see some negative impact on the sport. McDonalds, Wal-Mart, Coca-Cola, etc - the global brands who would make good cadidtaes for sponsorship - will not want to be involved if the sport begins to appear a bit steamy. And remember, to businesses, fact, law, reality - all mean nothing. What counts is the public's perception.

Sincere apologies if I'm pontificating. I very much enjoy the posts here, even those a bit OTT, but I'm speaking from 20 years experience in marketing/branding. I hope this will add something of value to the discussion.

[RedMaple]

McLaren were charged and fined $100M for bringing the sport into disrepute

They were fined for cheating. The $100M reflects what the WMC assessed as the benefit they gained from possessing Ferrari's valuable technical info as well as a punitive amount to punish them and deter others from doing the same. They also did it to prevent the teams who did play by the rules from taking legal action against the FIA to redistribute the earnings they would argue they were 'technically' denied by McLaren's cheating assisted performances.

Max, on the other hand, has in some ways bought the FIA and F1 into disrepute - but since he can be stood down/voted out that really is their only avenue against him available.

R

There should be a survey done to see the correlation between those who wish for Max's head and his handing McLaren a $100M fine. I think it would be quite high. I don't understand what Max was supposed to do. Let them off? If so would that not have really brought F1 to its knees? Who would have believed McLaren won fair and square?

As for Max his days are numbered. Everybody knows it. I am interested in knowing who set him up if what Max say is correct.

[Ray]

Moreso, there isn't probably a country that interfered so much in other countries business and was involved in so many massacres abroad to gain strategic and economical advantages than yours, face it. Are you that delusional or just pulling our leg?

Great Britain maybe?

Anyway, this thread is about Max not which country is more evil than another, we are all guilty in some way. I think Max should go because I don't like him, and that's a damn good legal reason to kick him out.

[Project Four]

RedMaple

There should be a survey done to see the correlation between those who wish for Max's head and his handing McLaren a $100M fine. I think it would be quite high. I don't understand what Max was supposed to do. Let them off? If so would that not have really brought F1 to its knees? Who would have believed McLaren won fair and square?

In some sense I do agree RedMaple, I raised the $100M fine as there is a link between McLaren's behaviour and Mosley's, both have brought the sport into disrepute. Also however, a lot more people / organisations are calling for Mosley to go than supported McLaren, namely AAA, German Auto organisation, Israel Auto organisation, Dutch Auto organisation, Paul Stoddart, Jody Scheckter, to name a few.

Rob W
This is sort of irrelevant. Max isn't a competitor and so isn't judged by the sporting code that teams are for a start. His role, duties and obligations will be clearly described in the constitution of the FIA. But, for sure, it is common for the senior people in any body of this sort to be expected to maintain higher standards than the bare minimum of 'legal activities' - for sponsorship, moral and respect reasons

I do think that the people who set the rules should abide by the rules that they set or presided over, and should also set a morale standard for those that they govern

[dumrick]

In some sense I do agree RedMaple, I raised the $100M fine as there is a link between McLaren's behaviour and Mosley's, both have brought the sport into disrepute.

This is another link: McLaren's fine was about of 1/3 of the selling value of F1's commercial rights for the next 100 years. There is no direct connection between the values but, within the same business, these values are not compatible: McLaren's actions were as serious as all the money commercial sales are worth in the whole F1 for the next 30 years??? We know Mosley's S&M tendencies now, but this is, either a too heavy spanking hand or incompetent management from Mosley of F1's interests. The first option makes the News of the World video suddently totally relevant for the sport ("Mosley likes spanking F1 teams like a whore in a roleplay event"), the second is a reason for him to be demoted in shame from office.