World car production

[Ciro Pabón]

Sorry, Checkered, you know I meant "Conceptual".

BTW, now that this thread has become "Illegal immigration in US", just to enlighten it a little, it costs 11 dollars to each US taxpayer household to pay for the entire immigrant workforce health care. Rand Study shows relatively little public money spent providing health care to undocumented immigrants.

There is already a bill presented twice last year to Congress and filibustered by major agroindustries: What is AgJOBS? Information about AgJOBS Farmworker Immigration Legislation. As you can imagine, there are americans that work in farms: cutting formally the pay to illegal immigrants means an automatic pay reduction to american workers. You know, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"...

[Ray]

Okay, now that I've had a chance to sit down, relax, and have a smoke [-X , let me make some things clear about my post earlier.

I am in no way in favor of curbing all immigration from Mexico. Not even close. I have serve in the Marines with alot of immigrant Mexicans and they were all outstanding people period. End of sentence. They were all great guys, hard working, and all around a pleasure to have in my Marines Corps. Hell, one even worked for me and he wore me out! Always wanting to take on more responsibility. My only regret is that I wasn't in command of 5 guys just like him.

I am very sorry Mx_Tifosi. Please accept my most humble apology. I meant in no way to upset you or demean your heritage/roots and that of your father and family. I commend you for risking everything to better both yourself, and the future of your family. Much respect. My beef(problem) was with those who abuse the opportunities that this country and it's government extend to those who wish to immigrate here. I have a problem with drug runners coming across the border, those who come here illegally and work for whatever they can get and never take the time or effort to become a US citizen. They are the ones who are doing the damage, not you. They come here, have a few children, and don't do anything in the gel process to become a citizen. Thereby causing more strain on me to pay for those children's future while struggling to provide for my own.

Any cost to me to pay for the health and welfare of others, without them making an effort for themselves, is wrong and immoral and not the least bit fair to me. Why should I, being a war veteran for the USMC NOT be entitled to the same 'perks' that others that don't derserve it get? Sure I get benefits from the VA, but it isn't free. For Christs' sake they sent me to war, and I don't get a damn thing like they do. They are abusers of the system. I am all for those that want to be to make a better life for themselves and their families, not those that choose to be deported 5 times for illegal immigration.

My parents neighbor Camillo is born and raised Colombian. Through and through. He immigrated here to do just what you did MX. Make a better life for himself and his family. He works his ass off, treats everyone he meets with respect and warmth, and above all is a really outstanding guy. He put in the effort that was required to do it legally. He even started his own business from scratch so he could afford to build a house and bring his family here. All within the law. And they are quite possibly the friendliest people on the block. Always say hello or wave when the neighbors are around. I would love to have a whole city full of people like him, but for every one Camillo there are a thousand that abuse the system. THAT'S what I have a problem with.

I too didn't come from a well off family. My parents are both from podunk towns in the heart of Mississippi. My mother was the only member of my family to graduate High School. Out of a class of five students. My father never made it past 7th grade, for reasons I won't divulge here, but talking to the man you'd never know. Without bragging, he's smarter than most people that have college degrees that are his age. He had learn the hard way, and unfortunately got dealt a bad hand in the game of life. Yet he worked, and still is, his hands to the bone just to survive. Never giving up even when he almost died of a serious intestinal ailment. Went $40k in debt to get the necessary surgery to fix it. All on a car mechanics daily wage. He did all that, on his own no help from a government program. Paid off that huge bill in less than three years, the whole time recovering from very serious surgery mind you.

I myself was the first person in my family, one of two including my mom, to graduate High School in over twenty years. No one gave us anything, never even thought about depending on the government for anything. I had to join the Marines to pay for a higher education because my family couldn't support it. Doing all that made me understand what hard work really is. Even being a military combat vet, no one would give me a job. My local Publix(grocery store) wouldn't hire me as a bagger for $6 an hour, yet they employed illegal Mexicans. Why not me? What did I deserve to be left out in the cold?

My '--- them' comment was about Mexican authorities thumbing their noses at extriditing a murderer to the US. Not Mexicans in general.

And MX, if we ever have the pleasure of meeting by Gods' graces, I'll be sure to buy you a nice cold beer my friend. I have the highest respect for men like you and your father.

[Ray]

Oh, and on topic , I have bought a set of OEM lights for my truck. A whopping $588 including tax. More than a weeks pay for me. But worth it.

[Ciro Pabón]

Ray, thanks, excellent smoke.

I edited my previous post heavily, from a twelve paragraphs rant to a two paragraphs "fact post" while Ray himself was posting his response, so I would like to think that the rant worked...

I would like to add that the AgJobs bill provides a way for legalizing immigrants: if you work for 5 years under its provisions, you can get citizenship. That's reasonable for me.

I think there are, I don't know 20 million illegal immigrants.

I think also that each year there are 1 million legal immigrants and 1.5 million illegal. Maybe the 1 to 1 million figure Ray mentions about the ratio between the behaviour of his neighbor and the illegal ones could be revised, it should be more like 1 to 1.5. Anyway, I think even this too high, some solution must be worked for the good of the US.

BTW, no other country in the world has more legal immigrants than US, so it's hard to accuse US of curbing all kinds of immigration as an excuse for illegal immigration.

Finally, the RAND corporation estimates that taking in account all costs and benefits, immigrants contribute as much as $10 billion to the U.S. economy each year. "The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration", so stop whining and start to say thanks...

Anyway, back on thread, the Chinese are beating the car manufacturers of the world. As it was pointed out, it won't take long for them to produce quality products. I expect the first F1 chinese team in 2015, more or less.

[Conceptual]

Now I'm confused...

Am I still being viewed as disrespectful by what I said, or has the light finally come on?

A few things. I am ALL FOR immigration, and what it would do for our collective economy. I also know that it is beyond argument that the cost of living in the US is directly tied to the Federal Minimum wage. The illegals MAY contribute 10bil to the US economy, but that money started here, and if they spend 10bil, they ship 90bil back to their families in Mexico. I have worked with several in my life, some illegal, some legal, and I cannot name harder, more honest, and more RELENTLESS workers that I have met.

I would just like to see them be able to come out of hiding, hold their head proudly as they walk openly in their new home, and be able to provide for the next generation of their bloodline in education, wealth and happiness.

Until we implement a plan of action SOON, the crashing dollar is going to destroy the USA. When the USD reaches 0, who do you think will be in charge? You guessed it, the corporations that can afford to hire foreigh mercanaries like Blackwater USA.

I embrace immigration, and the American way of life. I am not afraid of competition in the workforce that they bring, I am not afraid of the ideals and language that they think, and I am not afraid of the God that they serve.

I am afraid that the longer our leaders can keep us apart, the easier it is for them to divide and conquer us. It is happening as you read this, and there is nothing that we can do but unite against it.

Remember, my four daughters suffer or exalt in the same land. My future son-in-laws may even be of these immigrants. I truly want nothing but positive movement of the human race as a whole, and I also understand that a perspective that wide takes alot of human cooperation.

I am a patriot, a father, and a Christian.

And I understand that it is going to get worse before it can get better. I would rather minimize the negative as much as possible, but there would still be unfairness, as stated in my original statement.

But at least in my way, no one has to die to make it better. And I mean better for the people, not the elite.

I'm done on this thread. I hope that I am finally understood on my point.

Thanks,

Chris

[donskar]

I was participating in a forum on international politics when suddenly all these F1 nuts began adding their posts.

Very unnerving.

Can we now return to our regular program?

[Ray]

I saw a Subaru commercial ealier and they claimed to be the first US car plant to have ZERO landfill waste, and were declared a wildlife habitat. That's no easy achievement. I'd like to see exactly how they accomplished that. We (I mean all car manufacturers) could benefit from their hard work worldwide.

[Belatti]

I was participating in a forum on international politics when suddenly all these F1 nuts began adding their posts.

Very unnerving.

Can we now return to our regular program?

Sorry man, are you in the wrong forum? this is "THE INTERNATIONAL POLITICS AND F1 FORUM"

Politics and religion is like arguing about the egg and the hen: "Who was first? the egg... but who put the egg? The hen... and where does the hen comes from?... so on and on"

Returning to the topic, Honda is building a plant 20km away from my home. They started a couple years ago planting a huge amount of trees in the lands they bought. That leads me to think if it would be a good idea to make plants plant plants to achieve a balance between one kind plants CO2 emisions and other kind plants CO2 consumptions

[Ciro Pabón]

Belatti, the hen and egg "question" has an easy answer. The egg was first. After all, chickens evolved from dinosaurs, if you get my drift...

So, nonwithstanding contrary opinions, I think that the car manufacturing situation involves, per se, the argument about US jobs, the outsourcing of rich countries looking for cheap labor (or in the US case, how to deal with "internal" cheap labor), competitivity, dollar and euro devaluation/revaluation, quality/price of products, market segmentation and domination, availability of cars for poor people, global warming, contamination, sustainability, infrastructure, accidents and deaths, the invasion of the disputed african market (hence China position in Darfur), you mention it.

For those that believe that figures only help engineers to make machines, I gladly announce that I included in the Wikipedia article the figures about car production given here. You can go there and find an article free of politics.

Now, if you want an analysis of the figures and the different personal positions that analysis bring forward, come to F1 Technical, "the forum where technics and their consequences mix", in the friendly environment that only those used to free speech and rational, scientific critic can develop.

I think is simple: attack the argument, keep it focused, think about the feelings of others but don't ask for respect for your opinions only because (you think) you have more experience, dissolve the problems instead of resolving them, use humour when the situation needs it, and, overall, try to be interesting (motivate your posts!).

I confess I agree with you that the issue of immigrants into US is totally OOT; I tried to split the thread, but I can't: I only moderate the General forum and this is in the Off Topic forum. Perhaps Tomba will do it.

Now, if engineers have to get a license to practice their profession is because, like physicians, we have a public responsability. But, hey, you (and donskar) are entitled to your (completely mistaken ) opinion (that was a joke, that was a joke! ).

[Project Four]

I had a conversation with a senior exec from one of the big three US manufacturers, and he stated that 60% of the build cost of vehicles is made the labor cost. There is constant pressure within the sector to reduce the head count and the labor costs. This is one of the reason why there has been a race to low labor countries.

It is also not just a labor cost issue, the standards are also a long way away from western standards. The video below was filmed in China and yes it is real. It is a 100-ton press which is stamping auto body panels. Any mistake by any of the guys and they will be dead.

http://www.intof1.com/f1t/PressAutomation_China.wmv

Typically on a similar application in the west there would be a fence around the press, guard switches, light-guards and robots undertaking the loading and unloading. And, all of this costs a lot of money. So if you can get away with not doing it you can produce a cheaper (more cost effective) product.

However, in the long run these countries where currently the labor costs are currently low will see their labor cost increase and the auto plants currently in Eastern Europe will migrate further eastward and the plants on the Western side of China will migrate further inland.

The lost of auto plants / auto manufacturers from countries does not just affect the jobs of the people employed within these plants. Clusters of industry build up around the auto plants servicing their needs. You only have to look at Germany with its historically strong auto industry and the cluster of other engineering companies that are supporting them (Siemens, KUKA robots, for example), whereas in the UK for another example there is no UK auto manufacturers and therefore very little engineering base.

[Conceptual]

I had a conversation with a senior exec from one of the big three US manufacturers, and he stated that 60% of the build cost of vehicles is made the labor cost. There is constant pressure within the sector to reduce the head count and the labor costs. This is one of the reason why there has been a race to low labor countries.

It is also not just a labor cost issue, the standards are also a long way away from western standards. The video below was filmed in China and yes it is real. It is a 100-ton press which is stamping auto body panels. Any mistake by any of the guys and they will be dead.

http://www.intof1.com/f1t/PressAutomation_China.wmv

Typically on a similar application in the west there would be a fence around the press, guard switches, light-guards and robots undertaking the loading and unloading. And, all of this costs a lot of money. So if you can get away with not doing it you can produce a cheaper (more cost effective) product.

However, in the long run these countries where currently the labor costs are currently low will see their labor cost increase and the auto plants currently in Eastern Europe will migrate further eastward and the plants on the Western side of China will migrate further inland.

The lost of auto plants / auto manufacturers from countries does not just affect the jobs of the people employed within these plants. Clusters of industry build up around the auto plants servicing their needs. You only have to look at Germany with its historically strong auto industry and the cluster of other engineering companies that are supporting them (Siemens, KUKA robots, for example), whereas in the UK for another example there is no UK auto manufacturers and therefore very little engineering base.

My point is that with the crashing dollar, if there was a way to increase the amount of LEGAL plant workers that can work for less than minimum wage, then the USA would become the world leader in manufactured goods retaining a high quality standard as well as possibly compensating the underpaid workers with full medical benefits based upon productivity.

But whatever. People will always think that you are taking advantage of someone if the idea sounds too good.

Chris

[mx_tifoso]

The 'concept' of legalizing illegal immigrants and then paying them less than the minimum wage is completely unrealistic and cruel, regardless of how brilliant you may think it is.

I shouldn't even ask this, but have you taken the time to consider the living conditions one would have to to endure earning less than the average minimum wage in this country? IIRC, the minimum wage in my state is around $6.75 USD or so, thats roughly a little less than $13,000 USD a year. Doing the simple math, 40% of that is $5,200 USD a year. How would a person in this country live earning that much? Please take the time to think about that, and then maybe, just maybe, you will reach enlightenment regarding this 'concept' of yours.

I would really prefer it if you would stick to leaching off other members when you come up with a new 'concept', which just happens to occur more often than not. Thus completely reducing your participation on other matters that involve the treatment of human beings, or preferably any type of living organism. Since frankly, you simply aren't up to the task of doing a decent job, doing a decent job would requite a heart, humility, and consideration for others (the least of many other requirements you don't seem to posses for the time being).

And BTW, please don't think that what you 'think is good for others' is what 'the others' really want. Since you don't have a clue as to what illegal immigrants, or any other human being might want or need. Please stop thinking purely about the dollar, and the American companies who might make a few millions less in profit, and instead direct your focus towards the human element involved.

'Conceptual', you're on the outside looking in, and I would prefer that it stays that way, and that you keep your ideas to yourself while you're at it.

Sincerely,
Mexican_tifosi

Edit: Spelling and Grammar check.

[Ray]

My point is that with the crashing dollar, if there was a way to increase the amount of LEGAL plant workers that can work for less than minimum wage, then the USA would become the world leader in manufactured goods retaining a high quality standard as well as possibly compensating the underpaid workers with full medical benefits based upon productivity.

But whatever. People will always think that you are taking advantage of someone if the idea sounds too good.

Chris

That's akin to slavery dude. Plus, don't ever quote me as saying the same things you are. In other words, don't +1 any of my posts because I don't deserve to be associated with your modern day idea of slavery.

[Belatti]

Belatti, the hen and egg "question" has an easy answer. The egg was first. After all, chickens evolved from dinosaurs, if you get my drift...

OK, that´s fair, so who was first, the dinosaur or the egg?
No, wait, you´ll tell me that dinosaurs evolved from fish, and so on and so on

Thinking a little deeply, where does unicelular beings came from?

[Ciro Pabón]

From zerocellulars +1, I guess. Ask Ray.