2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

[GPR-A duplicate2]

That list is interesting. Ferrari HAVE to win this year. The Mercedes Achilles heel has been their long wheel base. If they shorten that somewhat (a halfway house between themselves now and the Ferrari length) to fix their shortcomings then where do Ferrari go next?

From a layman perspective, we can attribute their challenges to the longer wheel Base. But, I have this feeling that they strongly believe in evolving the philosophy that they have chosen, which is how have always operated. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see if W09 would turn up with another longer wheel Base, minus the current challenges.

True but I don't think it will be AS long. They have mentioned how much of a diva she is. I can see them knocking a small amount of length off to settle her down. I also wonder if they will go back and look at their tiny amount of rake? All obviously in layman's terms.

The biggest challenge of trying to change the length of wheel base, is going to be completely changing the CFD configurations and remodeling (re-calibrating) the wind tunnel. If they want to do that, they cannot really focus on the current car's upgrades as they cannot produce upgrades using a completely changed model. Just to quote, when the nose regulations were tightened for 2015, the W06 had lost a lot of downforce. A Small change, but the whole flow had changed. So, it's not easy to simply move from 3,706mm to 3,620mm (as you have suggested to be in between the current wheel base and Ferrari's current wheel base). An 80mm length is a sea change in terms of behavior of the car. It forces changes in weight distribution, engine and other mechanical mountings, cooling systems, suspension layout, aero load etc., Data for every parameter that they have collected on the current car, could potentially become useless.

They chose to go for longer wheel base in the first place, for a number of reasons. They probably took that decision at a certain stage, where they did not completely envisage the challenges that they were going to face. Now that they have faced the challenges and have rectified a great deal of them, it would be foolish to backtrack and chase something that they had ditched a year (may be more, as they have separate design team that works on designs for 2 years ahead) back as that design did not provide them what they were looking for. They anyway don't build a car for street circuits, so it shouldn't really bother them too much that they have struggled in Monaco and Hungary (could have struggled in Singapore if not for the start mayhem).

Unlike the past 3 years, Mercedes cannot afford to move resources to next year's car early and drop the upgrades for the current car. The fight with Ferrari is really hard and they have to produce upgrades, even if they are refinements. So, changing the CFD and Wind tunnel model is going to be a huge challenge to move in a direction that they do not know (which they had ditched after figuring out that it wasn't working) and compromise the current season.

[NathanOlder]

That list is interesting. Ferrari HAVE to win this year. The Mercedes Achilles heel has been their long wheel base. If they shorten that somewhat (a halfway house between themselves now and the Ferrari length) to fix their shortcomings then where do Ferrari go next?

Surely the Mercedes is the best car over the season, hence the lead in the WCC. So wouldn't it be a case of everyone else making their wheelbase longer ??

[Restomaniac]

From a layman perspective, we can attribute their challenges to the longer wheel Base. But, I have this feeling that they strongly believe in evolving the philosophy that they have chosen, which is how have always operated. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see if W09 would turn up with another longer wheel Base, minus the current challenges.

True but I don't think it will be AS long. They have mentioned how much of a diva she is. I can see them knocking a small amount of length off to settle her down. I also wonder if they will go back and look at their tiny amount of rake? All obviously in layman's terms.

The biggest challenge of trying to change the length of wheel base, is going to be completely changing the CFD configurations and remodeling (re-calibrating) the wind tunnel. If they want to do that, they cannot really focus on the current car's upgrades as they cannot produce upgrades using a completely changed model. Just to quote, when the nose regulations were tightened for 2015, the W06 had lost a lot of downforce. A Small change, but the whole flow had changed. So, it's not easy to simply move from 3,706mm to 3,620mm (as you have suggested to be in between the current wheel base and Ferrari's current wheel base). An 80mm length is a sea change in terms of behavior of the car. It forces changes in weight distribution, engine and other mechanical mountings, cooling systems, suspension layout, aero load etc., Data for every parameter that they have collected on the current car, could potentially become useless.

They chose to go for longer wheel base in the first place, for a number of reasons. They probably took that decision at a certain stage, where they did not completely envisage the challenges that they were going to face. Now that they have faced the challenges and have rectified a great deal of them, it would be foolish to backtrack and chase something that they had ditched a year (may be more, as they have separate design team that works on designs for 2 years ahead) back as that design did not provide them what they were looking for. They anyway don't build a car for street circuits, so it shouldn't really bother them too much that they have struggled in Monaco and Hungary (could have struggled in Singapore if not for the start mayhem).

Unlike the past 3 years, Mercedes cannot afford to move resources to next year's car early and drop the upgrades for the current car. The fight with Ferrari is really hard and they have to produce upgrades, even if they are refinements. So, changing the CFD and Wind tunnel model is going to be a huge challenge to move in a direction that they do not know (which they had ditched after figuring out that it wasn't working) and compromise the current season.

Maybe not make her shorter by that much (I didn't mean exactly in the middle of Merc and Ferrari sorry if that wasn't clear.) But they still go on about her being a diva. I imagine no stone will be left unturned to fix that. I understand the point you are making though.

[Restomaniac]

That list is interesting. Ferrari HAVE to win this year. The Mercedes Achilles heel has been their long wheel base. If they shorten that somewhat (a halfway house between themselves now and the Ferrari length) to fix their shortcomings then where do Ferrari go next?

Surely the Mercedes is the best car over the season, hence the lead in the WCC. So wouldn't it be a case of everyone else making their wheelbase longer ??

I can see the Ferrari lengthening slightly and the Mercedes shortening slightly (neither by huge amounts as has been pointed out higher up because of the shear R&D problems that causes). The Red Bull won't change though as Newey always seems to want to go his own way.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Maybe not shortener her by that much (I didn't mean exactly in the middle of Merc and Ferrari sorry if that wasn't clear.) But they still go on about her being a diva. I imagine no stone will be left unturned to fix that. I understand the point you are making though.

Agree on the point that, they would leave no stone unturned to fix the current issues. But my only take would be, with an evolution of the current concept.

[Restomaniac]

Maybe not shortener her by that much (I didn't mean exactly in the middle of Merc and Ferrari sorry if that wasn't clear.) But they still go on about her being a diva. I imagine no stone will be left unturned to fix that. I understand the point you are making though.

Agree on the point that, they would leave no stone unturned to fix the current issues. But my only take would be, with an evolution of the current concept.

It's going to be interesting to see how Ferrari and Mercedes try to overcome the problems both camps have. It's just a shame they are probably going to be overshadowed by the RB/STR/Mc/Renault/Honda situation.

[Vasconia]

Gasly to race in Malaysia instead of Kvyat

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13203 ... lace-kvyat

Wow, somekind of a quietus for Kvyat? hopefully for him Saiz will be out next season so he should continue in TR but I guess he is not happy with this temporal move.

[Vasconia]

Maybe not shortener her by that much (I didn't mean exactly in the middle of Merc and Ferrari sorry if that wasn't clear.) But they still go on about her being a diva. I imagine no stone will be left unturned to fix that. I understand the point you are making though.

Agree on the point that, they would leave no stone unturned to fix the current issues. But my only take would be, with an evolution of the current concept.

It's going to be interesting to see how Ferrari and Mercedes try to overcome the problems both camps have. It's just a shame they are probably going to be overshadowed by the RB/STR/Mc/Renault/Honda situation.

Mercedes is only slightly worse in 2-3 tracks being in the rest the fastest car. Unless Ferrari is very sure that their concept could be better in the future they should change their wheelbase´s lenght.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Agree on the point that, they would leave no stone unturned to fix the current issues. But my only take would be, with an evolution of the current concept.

It's going to be interesting to see how Ferrari and Mercedes try to overcome the problems both camps have. It's just a shame they are probably going to be overshadowed by the RB/STR/Mc/Renault/Honda situation.

Mercedes is only slightly worse in 2-3 tracks being in the rest the fastest car. Unless Ferrari is very sure that their concept could be better in the future they should change their wheelbase´s lenght.

A car that has great mechanical grip and higher downforce than W08 (albeit arguably less efficient), is surely a great foundation for the new regulations. The team has got it wrong on many occasions with it's setup, like in Silverstone and Monza, while they were really good in Australia, Spain and Spa; and they clearly dominated in Monaco and Hungary and were set to do the same in Singapore. The development race would move over to next season. It would be nerve racking if Ferrari gets it wrong for next season. Instead of trying to chase a longer wheel base (an unknown territory), it would be good if Ferrari can also evolve and take their current concept to another level.

[Vasconia]

It's going to be interesting to see how Ferrari and Mercedes try to overcome the problems both camps have. It's just a shame they are probably going to be overshadowed by the RB/STR/Mc/Renault/Honda situation.

Mercedes is only slightly worse in 2-3 tracks being in the rest the fastest car. Unless Ferrari is very sure that their concept could be better in the future they should change their wheelbase´s lenght.

A car that has great mechanical grip and higher downforce than W08 (albeit arguably less efficient), is surely a great foundation for the new regulations. The team has got it wrong on many occasions with it's setup, like in Silverstone and Monza, while they were really good in Australia, Spain and Spa; and they clearly dominated in Monaco and Hungary and were set to do the same in Singapore. The development race would move over to next season. It would be nerve racking if Ferrari gets it wrong for next season. Instead of trying to chase a longer wheel base (an unknown territory), it would be good if Ferrari can also evolve and take their current concept to another level.

I can´t disagree with you. As I have said, if they consider this is the correct path and they see a good development rate, they should stick to it and continue working. This season is being enough good for them to avoid making the same mistake of "lets begin from 0 again".

[zeph]

I wonder how much of Ferrari's success this season is part of James Allison's legacy, and how much of it will carry over to next year.

[Phil]

Surely the Mercedes is the best car over the season, hence the lead in the WCC. So wouldn't it be a case of everyone else making their wheelbase longer ??

IMO, it's not the "long wheelbase" per say, but more a question of how a team achieves the best downforce. Mercedes opted to go for a longer wheelbase, because that is the concept they felt comfortable with (low rake). RedBull on the other hand, has always done well in getting a car to work with a lot of rake. Ferrari now has too. They are two completely different philosophies, one you can't simply change by shortening or lengthening the car from what I understand. It's very much tied to the rake of the car.

[Restomaniac]

Surely the Mercedes is the best car over the season, hence the lead in the WCC. So wouldn't it be a case of everyone else making their wheelbase longer ??

IMO, it's not the "long wheelbase" per say, but more a question of how a team achieves the best downforce. Mercedes opted to go for a longer wheelbase, because that is the concept they felt comfortable with (low rake). RedBull on the other hand, has always done well in getting a car to work with a lot of rake. Ferrari now has too. They are two completely different philosophies, one you can't simply change by shortening or lengthening the car from what I understand. It's very much tied to the rake of the car.

Indeed. Mercedes is longest and also least rake. IIRC.

[zioture]

Preview Race

[Moose]

Why are you guys all convinced that the long wheel base is the issue?

Mercedes has had issues with tight twisty circuits for several years now, even when they had much shorter wheelbases. Their aero philosophy is simply to go for maximum efficiency, not maximum downforce, which penalizes them at max downforce circuits.