2017 Malaysia Grand Prix - Sepang, 29 September-01 October

[ChrisDanger]

They should also talk to the mysterious Ferrari twitterer.

They could probably be reached at home this weekend.

You're saying it was Sergio?

Just that they are most likely no longer employed.

[TAG]

They could probably be reached at home this weekend.

You're saying it was Sergio?

Just that they are most likely no longer employed.

Tongue in cheek. I doubt very much that person was anyone "inconsequential" enough to be cut loose, especially when they tweeted out a couple of hours later doubling down on what they'd said in the first place. It's a mystery indeed.

https://twitter.com/ScuderiaFerrari/sta ... 8630003716

[iotar__]

On a track like Singapore, every car is ran with max downforce and Red Bull had 10kph advantage over Ferrari on the final corner(205vs195kph). Ferrari doesn't have the highest downforce anymore and even if they did I don't think that would be enough on Sepang to fight against Mercedes power advantage.

- How is that an indication of max downforce (whatever that is) between teams? How is the final corner speed difference between Ferrari and Red Bull in Singapore and indication of Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari in Malaysia?

- "Ferrari doesn't have the highest downforce anymore". Leaving definitions aside, how is being the quickest on maximum DF track: Monaco, Hungary, close second in Barcelona and last but not least quickest in Singapore not the proof to the contrary?
- Where does it put Mercedes? They were fine on every high-speed corner track (I'd say you need DF for that), not so much on slow-medium (tracks mentioned above minus Spain).

- How did this no engine, no DF advantage car kept close easily behind Merc at Spa and dominated Hungary? Same for Baku, Monza is an odd one, especially this season.

- Merc are slight favourites here, if I'm wrong and they dominate, this season is done and I'm fine with that .

[GrandAxe]

The W08 is designed around generating downforce with the entire floor....

Isn’t this something that everybody is doing?

Probably you meant that they are generating their underbody downforce over a larger surface area?

Yes, that's what I meant in part - my terminology is a bit clumsy because I'm not an engineer - greater surface area; but unlike other cars, also needing all sorts of formidably intricate devices in the floor area between the front wing mounts and the sidepods to condition air flow to the diffuser for the generation of downforce.

The W08 is designed around generating downforce with the entire floor, which is why they have such a shallow rake and so many complicated aero bits around the tub and air inlets. Ferrari on the other hand is designed around a more efficient diffuser, which is why its angle of rake is so pronounced

Where did you get this information?

What i´ve read is that Mercedes tried a high-rake concept for 2017 but they just could not make it work so they simply made the car longer to get the downforce out of it.

The complicated aerobits have been around well before 2017, it´s just that 2017 regulations allow a lot more of them.

The complicated aero bits increased with the lengthening of the wheel base (the W07 was 3,500 mm, while the W08 is 3,760 mm).

[Restomaniac]

Just watched the drivers press conference and I wonder if Kimi said. 'Moa.......I do' when he got married. Every time he does that it it makes me chuckle.
Also I'll be damned if Vettel hasn't started doing it too.

[Artur Craft]

How is that an indication of max downforce (whatever that is) between teams? How is the final corner speed difference between Ferrari and Red Bull in Singapore and indication of Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari in Malaysia?

- "Ferrari doesn't have the highest downforce anymore". Leaving definitions aside, how is being the quickest on maximum DF track: Monaco, Hungary, close second in Barcelona and last but not least quickest in Singapore not the proof to the contrary?
- Where does it put Mercedes? They were fine on every high-speed corner track (I'd say you need DF for that), not so much on slow-medium (tracks mentioned above minus Spain).

- How did this no engine, no DF advantage car kept close easily behind Merc at Spa and dominated Hungary? Same for Baku, Monza is an odd one, especially this season.

- Merc are slight favourites here, if I'm wrong and they dominate, this season is done and I'm fine with that .

Historically, all teams have always ran with the max downforce they can shove onto their cars, on tracks like Monaco, Hungary, Singapore.... that is because there is almost no drag penalty in those places. On a track like Spa, Monza or even Silverstone, Austria and etc, drag is an important factor so some teams run relatively lower downforce than others and is difficult to compare each team's actual downforce values.

Ferrari got pole on Singapore because their car is very good on low speed corners and Ferrari's PU is superior to Renault(Vettel got all of his advantage on S1, maybe due to better driving as well, not just car superiority). On the last corner(and IIRC RB was faster through S2 and S3, btw), a downforce demanding one, it was pretty clear that Red Bull now have more downforce than Ferrari and Mercedes(we can't argue with the speedometer)

I didn't say Red Bull had more downforce than Ferrari on the tracks that you mentioned(I said Ferrari doesn't have the highest downforce anymore).

My association with how Ferrari will compare to Mercedes, on Sepang, is due to the aparent indication that Ferrari was outdeveloped by Red Bull again and likely didn't improve as much as they needed to in order to counterbalance Mercedes' neverending, and annoying, PU advantage.

Mercedes will always do good on tracks such as Silverstone, Suzuka, Spa because, eventhough they have many fast corners, they also massively rely on power. Mercedes has a relatively small handicap with it's aero and it's power superiority much more than compensates anything they lose on the fast corners(for instance, Kimi had higher speed on Copse but Hamilton still took pole confortably).

Hamilton will be on pole by at least some 0.3s, imho. For whatever reason, Bottas has been very slow after Monaco(with Hungary and Austria as exceptions), so he won't be a threat and Ferrari might top S2 but Mercedes will have the upperhand on S1/S3(of course, this can change with Mercedes running relatively higher df to be good on S2 and exchange some of their speed on the other sectors)

Finally, the season is not done yet. We might still be entertained with some good racing and crazy GPs, with a bit ot luck. However, the WDC was decided on Singapore's start and the WCC even before that.

[Moose]

I really don't get why you guys are so focused on Mercedes' supposed power advantage.

The reason they have such an advantage at places like Silverstone is not power, it's aero efficiency. They're able to put 95% as much downforce on as Ferrari, but with only 90% of the drag.*

Engine power at the top end of top speeds makes near no difference, since drag cubes with speed. The difference is purely that they have less aerodynamic drag on their car than Ferrari do, and that's why you see them able to stretch their legs through high speed corners, as well as straights.

There's a cross over point somewhere around 150km/h where the speed-lost-due-to-extra-drag curve crosses over the speed-gained-from-extra-downforce curve. Above that point, the Mercedes is faster through a corner than the Ferrari, and vice versa.

* actual numbers made up on the spot.

[SectorOne]

The complicated aero bits increased with the lengthening of the wheel base (the W07 was 3,500 mm, while the W08 is 3,760 mm).

I asked a question.

[Sevach]

How is that an indication of max downforce (whatever that is) between teams? How is the final corner speed difference between Ferrari and Red Bull in Singapore and indication of Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari in Malaysia?

- "Ferrari doesn't have the highest downforce anymore". Leaving definitions aside, how is being the quickest on maximum DF track: Monaco, Hungary, close second in Barcelona and last but not least quickest in Singapore not the proof to the contrary?
- Where does it put Mercedes? They were fine on every high-speed corner track (I'd say you need DF for that), not so much on slow-medium (tracks mentioned above minus Spain).

- How did this no engine, no DF advantage car kept close easily behind Merc at Spa and dominated Hungary? Same for Baku, Monza is an odd one, especially this season.

- Merc are slight favourites here, if I'm wrong and they dominate, this season is done and I'm fine with that .

Historically, all teams have always ran with the max downforce they can shove onto their cars, on tracks like Monaco, Hungary, Singapore.... that is because there is almost no drag penalty in those places. On a track like Spa, Monza or even Silverstone, Austria and etc, drag is an important factor so some teams run relatively lower downforce than others and is difficult to compare each team's actual downforce values.

Ferrari got pole on Singapore because their car is very good on low speed corners and Ferrari's PU is superior to Renault(Vettel got all of his advantage on S1, maybe due to better driving as well, not just car superiority). On the last corner(and IIRC RB was faster through S2 and S3, btw), a downforce demanding one, it was pretty clear that Red Bull now have more downforce than Ferrari and Mercedes(we can't argue with the speedometer)

I didn't say Red Bull had more downforce than Ferrari on the tracks that you mentioned(I said Ferrari doesn't have the highest downforce anymore).

My association with how Ferrari will compare to Mercedes, on Sepang, is due to the aparent indication that Ferrari was outdeveloped by Red Bull again and likely didn't improve as much as they needed to in order to counterbalance Mercedes' neverending, and annoying, PU advantage.

Mercedes will always do good on tracks such as Silverstone, Suzuka, Spa because, eventhough they have many fast corners, they also massively rely on power. Mercedes has a relatively small handicap with it's aero and it's power superiority much more than compensates anything they lose on the fast corners(for instance, Kimi had higher speed on Copse but Hamilton still took pole confortably).

Hamilton will be on pole by at least some 0.3s, imho. For whatever reason, Bottas has been very slow after Monaco(with Hungary and Austria as exceptions), so he won't be a threat and Ferrari might top S2 but Mercedes will have the upperhand on S1/S3(of course, this can change with Mercedes running relatively higher df to be good on S2 and exchange some of their speed on the other sectors)

Finally, the season is not done yet. We might still be entertained with some good racing and crazy GPs, with a bit ot luck. However, the WDC was decided on Singapore's start and the WCC even before that.

Your logic is flawed because it appears that Red Bull has developed their car better than Mercedes too, Red Bull i'm curious to see if the Red Bull guys can start getting in front of Raikkonen/Bottas.

[Juzh]

Engine power at the top end of top speeds makes near no difference, since drag cubes with speed.

I guess that's the reason then V6 is 20+ kph faster on the straights on average compared to the V8s even with a lot more drag. /s

[Moose]

Engine power at the top end of top speeds makes near no difference, since drag cubes with speed.

I guess that's the reason then V6 is 20+ kph faster on the straights on average compared to the V8s even with a lot more drag. /s

Yes - they have ~250 more horses (35% more), and go 20kph faster (5% more) (which, not so coincidentally works out to roughly the cube of 35%).

Mercedes have at most 20 more horses than Ferrari (~2%), which will result in a top speed increase of .0008%, aka 0.0028km/h.

The speed difference is their aero efficiency, not the engine.

[foxmulder_ms]

Just watched the drivers press conference and I wonder if Kimi said. 'Moa.......I do' when he got married. Every time he does that it it makes me chuckle.
Also I'll be damned if Vettel hasn't started doing it too.

Vettel is learning from the best.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=Moose]Engine power at the top end of top speeds makes near no difference, since drag cubes with speed.[/quote]

drag is proportional to the square of speed - so power required is proportional to the cube of speed

20% more power will produce about 6.3% more speed
2% more power will produce about 0.66% more speed

[Restomaniac]

Just watched the drivers press conference and I wonder if Kimi said. 'Moa.......I do' when he got married. Every time he does that it it makes me chuckle.
Also I'll be damned if Vettel hasn't started doing it too.

Vettel is learning from the best.

[Juzh]

Engine power at the top end of top speeds makes near no difference, since drag cubes with speed.

I guess that's the reason then V6 is 20+ kph faster on the straights on average compared to the V8s even with a lot more drag. /s

Yes - they have ~250 more horses (35% more), and go 20kph faster (5% more) (which, not so coincidentally works out to roughly the cube of 35%).

Mercedes have at most 20 more horses than Ferrari (~2%), which will result in a top speed increase of .0008%, aka 0.0028km/h.

The speed difference is their aero efficiency, not the engine.

All fine and cool, except power output is not constant troughout the lap since 2014 onwards, so there are situations where mercedes can have upwards of 80 or more horse power on the end of long straights. That's why In singapore ferrari was +/-1 kph compared to mercedes in all speed traps that favour power output, and that's also why they've been 10 kph down on some other tracks.