2017 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 20-22 October

[Jolle]

I also suspect that is the problem other drivers have with him - he isn't quite consistent when it comes to the rule book, just look at how HAM was tiptoeing with him when he made his overtake, it looked like he expected anything to happen there, and it is what happened with Bottas - he didn't leave any space at the exit, and he thought that was ok... because if he did, he would lose speed and that would allow Bottas to get him at the exit, so he managed to get the overtake done, his fans think of him as a hero, when in fact he simply disrespected the rule book yet again, because he knows that it would be judged and wrote off as a racing incident - because that is what the fans want to see, right, overtaking

My opinion is that other drivers don't expect him to behave properly, they know he will probably not leave the space for them, so they are extra cautious, and that works in his favor, and that in turn makes him look better than he really is, he is young, he is arrogant, he is fast, he is aggressive, but wait till you see him actually start to think championship wise, not just take any chance and hope that the other guy backs off.

Watch how Hamilton does his overtakes. Just as aggressive (same first turn with Rosberg a couple of years ago?).

So strange. “The people” want hard racing and if someone does... it’s not okay.

Watch how Mansell, Senna, Hamilton and Alonso overtake, it’s a racer, not just a fast driver. Bottas (and Hamilton) are men enough not to whine on the radio when someone overtakes them.

[jz11]

but did they use those "hard" overtakes to defend against the penalties they received on other occasions?

I fully expect Max to crash into others that try "hard" overtakes on him, just to establish his personality, and it is not like that hasn't happened already

P.s. I criticize not the overtake he did on Bottas, but the fact that he used it to defend his position on having the right to cut the corner to get by Kimi

[Vasconia]

It wasn’t weird (especially in hindsight) that they waited to pit Hamilton. He was on a one-stop while vet/ver were on two stops. It must have been marginal because with just a lap to go they made a safety stop for BOT who’s tires were just a few laps older.

I know, but one lap before would have been enough to give Lewis more room. There was no need to give Sebastian a chance to overtake again Lewis. Yes, he would have won because he was clearly faster but why to put him under a risky situation when there was no need?

Hamilton made the one stop strategy goood but Bottas had no pace so he should have tried a 2 stop strategy.

[Jolle]

but did they use those "hard" overtakes to defend against the penalties they received on other occasions?

I fully expect Max to crash into others that try "hard" overtakes on him, just to establish his personality, and it is not like that hasn't happened already

P.s. I criticize not the overtake he did on Bottas, but the fact that he used it to defend his position on having the right to cut the corner to get by Kimi

And again, with all this overtaking his crash ratio is quite low. Could it be that he knows when and how much risk to take?

[notsofast]

Imagine if FIFA (or NFL) were to change the rules and say that it's ok for the ball (or the player) to be out of bounds as long as no advantage is gained. Just think about it.

Right now F1 is like gymnastics or figure skating, where points are awarded by a jury.

F1 needs to be like the Operation game. Depending on when you bought yours, it will likely say "Skill Game" right on the box.

[GrandAxe]

but did they use those "hard" overtakes to defend against the penalties they received on other occasions?

I fully expect Max to crash into others that try "hard" overtakes on him, just to establish his personality, and it is not like that hasn't happened already

P.s. I criticize not the overtake he did on Bottas, but the fact that he used it to defend his position on having the right to cut the corner to get by Kimi

And again, with all this overtaking his crash ratio is quite low. Could it be that he knows when and how much risk to take?

Max? His crash ratio is rather high. Still, yesterdays penalty was harsh and uncalled for.

[iotar__]

- Over the top fake outrage about one small and meaningless penalty is the only excitement after GP?

- Off the top of my head I can name twenty or fifty if you include missed ones that were much worse. Most of them didn't get a single headline or were embraced by Red Bull salesmen association called F1 media. Give me more time and I can find a hundred.

- Half of them would be about RB and ten about Verstappen personally which makes their martyr routine even more nauseating. No calls in Hungary and Spa '16 (including temporary change of rules to cover cheating ) killed this sport 100 times more.

- Ericsson's was a rather soft one so at least they were somehow consistant.

[TwanV]

but did they use those "hard" overtakes to defend against the penalties they received on other occasions?

I fully expect Max to crash into others that try "hard" overtakes on him, just to establish his personality, and it is not like that hasn't happened already

P.s. I criticize not the overtake he did on Bottas, but the fact that he used it to defend his position on having the right to cut the corner to get by Kimi

And again, with all this overtaking his crash ratio is quite low. Could it be that he knows when and how much risk to take?

Max? His crash ratio is rather high.

How high? Nonsense discussion, there was no crash.

Mika Salo's video shows kimi moving towards the apex. Kimi in fact stated he didn't know that he was there. Point is, before he "cut" the track, he was alongside. All other drivers are backing him up, even Wurz. Who cares about any damn lines, if he didn't cross them they would both be out.

[marvin78]

And again, with all this overtaking his crash ratio is quite low. Could it be that he knows when and how much risk to take?

Max? His crash ratio is rather high.

How high? Nonsense discussion, there was no crash.

He took out his own teammate in hungary, I think. So there is at least one.

[GrandAxe]

And again, with all this overtaking his crash ratio is quite low. Could it be that he knows when and how much risk to take?

Max? His crash ratio is rather high.

How high? Nonsense discussion, there was no crash.

Mika Salo's video shows kimi moving towards the apex. Kimi in fact stated he didn't know that he was there. Point is, before he "cut" the track, he was alongside. All other drivers are backing him up, even Wurz. Who cares about any damn lines, if he didn't cross them they would both be out.

Its very simple math to add up the number of times Max has crashed per race. It is the easiest thing to prove that Max crashes far more than average; that is a totally different point from whether he deserved the penalty or not though. Learn to separate your arguments.

[sosic2121]

but did they use those "hard" overtakes to defend against the penalties they received on other occasions?

I fully expect Max to crash into others that try "hard" overtakes on him, just to establish his personality, and it is not like that hasn't happened already

P.s. I criticize not the overtake he did on Bottas, but the fact that he used it to defend his position on having the right to cut the corner to get by Kimi

And again, with all this overtaking his crash ratio is quite low. Could it be that he knows when and how much risk to take?

Low? Is this a joke?

[drunkf1fan]

I also suspect that is the problem other drivers have with him - he isn't quite consistent when it comes to the rule book, just look at how HAM was tiptoeing with him when he made his overtake, it looked like he expected anything to happen there, and it is what happened with Bottas - he didn't leave any space at the exit, and he thought that was ok... because if he did, he would lose speed and that would allow Bottas to get him at the exit, so he managed to get the overtake done, his fans think of him as a hero, when in fact he simply disrespected the rule book yet again, because he knows that it would be judged and wrote off as a racing incident - because that is what the fans want to see, right, overtaking

My opinion is that other drivers don't expect him to behave properly, they know he will probably not leave the space for them, so they are extra cautious, and that works in his favor, and that in turn makes him look better than he really is, he is young, he is arrogant, he is fast, he is aggressive, but wait till you see him actually start to think championship wise, not just take any chance and hope that the other guy backs off.

Hamilton wasn't tiptoeing at all, Brundle said that because brundle is often idiotic. Hamilton moved far away from him on the corner after the backstraight because he wanted to cut under him and get a better exit to make the move... which is exactly what he did. If he didn't move over to the left and cut right under Verstappen he couldn't get better traction or the speed to beat him into the next corner. Brundle said instead that staying left was him being scared Max would do something stupid, utter and complete nonsense. Hamilton made an aggressive move to overtake there rather than wait for the next straight. Vettel wasn't remotely close enough to be a problem yet, Hamilton had plenty of time to follow to the straight then pass up the hill and instead he went very early on that very corner he was supposedly avoiding Max.

[TwanV]

dub, sorry

[TwanV]

Max? His crash ratio is rather high.

How high? Nonsense discussion, there was no crash.

Mika Salo's video shows kimi moving towards the apex. Kimi in fact stated he didn't know that he was there. Point is, before he "cut" the track, he was alongside. All other drivers are backing him up, even Wurz. Who cares about any damn lines, if he didn't cross them they would both be out.

Its very simple math to add up the number of times Max has crashed per race. It is the easiest thing to prove that Max crashes far more than average; that is a totally different point from whether he deserved the penalty or not though. Learn to separate your arguments.

This is becoming rather silly, sorry guys. Give me some numbers. Do the math and you'll see it's nothing special. If you feel it is in any way relevant to this discussion. And for your information, I am separating my arguments. I don't know why we are talking about crashing cars since there were none, therefore I am dismissing it.

[sosic2121]

No calls in Hungary and Spa '16 (including temporary change of rules to cover cheating ) killed this sport 100 times more.

Just to remember, in Spa Kimi was 100% in front of max, max braked later then super late, didn't make a corner, pushed kimi wide. Charlie ordered kimi to give that place back, although he did nothing wrong, he was in front, made the overtake and max tried to optimistic overtake.
If he got penalty then instead of free place, I bet he would be smarter and better driver today.