2017 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 20-22 October

[marvin78]

Think if it was Vettel passing Hamilton with that kind of maneuver.... robbing points on the title fight. Would you think the steward made a idiotic decision?

Why Vettel?

I am not a fan of any of the drivers. To me it is irrelevant which driver makes something like that. It's against the rules and needs to be punished. AND I don't compare.

[santos]

Think if it was Vettel passing Hamilton with that kind of maneuver.... robbing points on the title fight. Would you think the steward made a idiotic decision?

Why Vettel?

I am not a fan of any of the drivers. To me it is irrelevant which driver makes something like that. It's against the rules and needs to be punished. AND I don't compare.

Because of all that happened during this season... i don't know if people would be saying that it was a hard penalty. (5 seconds... it's not a hard penalty)

[Phil]

According to, i think Ted’s post race notebook, what made the stewards decide in favor of the 5 second penalty is because Max’s off line driving resulted in a “shortened track” and therefore gained an unfair advantage. Presumably, if the maneuver had taken place on the corner outside, it would have been decided differently.

I still think the point that Max was already partly alongside Kimi when he jinxed right, that that lead to Max going off with extra margin and not because he intended or needed to in order to pull off the move. I think that accounts for something.

On the other hand, because the whole pass took place inside a corner, Max was going for a gap that was already going to close, so i guess the 5 second time penalty is ok. Despite all this, i think not penalizing him would have been the better for the sport, the race and this topic. (Or if they had given him that penalty post celebrations or something).

[TwanV]

Spot on Phil

[f1316]

Yeah, I agree.

When I watched it at the time, I in no way thought there was a penalty - and neither did Kimi.

But watching Di Resta’s analysis, I don’t think you can argue with it - shortening the track to make an overtake is like taking a shortcut.

The reaction of both Versrappens could be better too, although I get it in the heat of the moment.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Think if it was Vettel passing Hamilton with that kind of maneuver.... robbing points on the title fight. Would you think the steward made a idiotic decision?

We already heard Steward' statement in Baku isn't it? "We didn't want to interfere in title fight". So, it's clear what would have happened if it was Vettel and Hamilton.

[George-Jung]

Bottas defending at 01:03
youtube

Surely he didn’t gained an advantage there..

[NathanOlder]

@phil TwanV f1316

As i was saying minutes after the race.

Max effectively tool a short cut! How hard was it to understand! !!!

[NathanOlder]

Bottas defending at 01:03
youtube

Surely he didn’t gained an advantage there..

I fail to see where Bottas did any overtaking off the race track. All i see is Bottas defending and being pushed off while doing so.

[Fulcrum]

https://youtu.be/rP6zj5_igiE

It looks to me like Max had overlap well before he left the track and Kimi came over and squeezed him. Thus only leaving Max with three options, back off and settle for 4th, collide with kimi , or go off the track.

I don't agree with you.

Verstappen went for an inside line that Kimi was always closing, as Kimi was running to the apex. At 42.5 - 43 seconds Kimi realises Verstappen is halfway alongside and actually veers to his left, and lifts off the accelarator, giving Verstappen additional space.

Grosjean made a similarly brave move in Hungary several years ago, and it felt wrong to penalise him then, but rules are rules. There would be fewer arguments if they were applied more consistently.

[reaper663]

Think if it was Vettel passing Hamilton with that kind of maneuver.... robbing points on the title fight. Would you think the steward made a idiotic decision?

We already heard Steward' statement in Baku isn't it? "We didn't want to interfere in title fight". So, it's clear what would have happened if it was Vettel and Hamilton.

He got a penalty. If ham didn't have the headrest problem, he would've won. It looked worse after to many because Hamilton finished behind.

Onto this, it's a clear penalty. He cut the corner and gained an advantage, that's against the regulations isn't it. The problem for many is consistency of the stewards.

[TwanV]

@phil TwanV f1316

As i was saying minutes after the race.

Max effectively tool a short cut! How hard was it to understand! !!!

I think Phil summed up the argument perfectly. It's not black and white, it's grey, particularly so because the complete lack of governing track-limits consistently. Bottom line, I think everybody would be happy if this was scrutineerd post race, whatever the outcome. I felt robbed of one of the highlights of the season at the moment of steward decision to be honest.
Not really a proper argument but I think the support from former drivers and pundits proves that there is something not right with what happened. It's not Lauda only, its Herbert, Webber("it was a just sh*t decision" ), Luyendyk (indy steward),Mario Andretti, the Franchitti's, Wurz, Chandok, Jordan, Buxton, and the list goes on.

[TAG]

He got a penalty. If ham didn't have the headrest problem, he would've won. It looked worse after to many because Hamilton finished behind.

I Hamilton wouldn't have gotten his headrest problem, what were the stewards waiting for not giving Vettel a penalty? This year, the sport has show it is willing to manipulate results, and who here is stupid enough to think that it's solely the race stewards decision? The get a call, they answer it and then make their decision.

[dren]

Hamilton is really something else at COTA. Nobody was going to touch him this weekend. Sainz looked up to speed in the Renault. Kvyat looked good back in the car, scoring a point for the team. Hartley was extremely unimpressive. I don't think we'll see him again. Gasly could have raced with the Super Formula race being postponed.

[Phil]

Max effectively tool a short cut! How hard was it to understand! !!!

I never didn't understand. I was just relaying what Ted said in his notebook as to why the stewards decided as they did. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it. In fact, it seems many in the paddock are quite vocal about it being the wrong decision.

My point is that Max went for a gap. That gap started to close and he took avoiding action, also because it was said before the race (obviously in the pre-race-weekend briefing) that there would be some tolerance regarding running off track. Watching FP1, FP2, FP3, QF and the race, there's a clear precedence in the stewards tolerating drivers running off the track at various corners. Verstappen avoided Kimi by going off the track and was momentarily off it completely. As you yourself noted, Kimi had already left room, so going off track wasn't necessary. IMO this is why the stewards should have acted more lenient towards Max and should have tolerated the overtake. Now if Kimi had already covered the insight and Max would have gone off track anyway with the clear goal of using the "shortcut" to get by, then that is a black/white offense IMO.