2021 Engine thread

[Zynerji]

I like giving the drivers independent control of the front wheels with triggers on the steering wheel, similar to a RC car remote.

[toraabe]

Pat Symmonds was pretty confident yesterday about how the new engines are going to look. It has all been decided by the FIA and we will know 31st of Oktober.

So here is what i thinks going to be the future

V6 Twin Turbo + FIA Standarized ERS
Consisting of a standard ES, standard MGU-K and standard GU-H (turbine+generator to recover exhaust gas energy, independant of the turbochargers)

Keep the fuel flow limiter, introduce a boost/pressure limiter to push the revs up to 18000rpm

It will be cheaper, louder, hybrid and less complex to develop, so more manufacturers will come into F1.

The current engines are not designed to Rev anything above 15k.
Read piston speed.

[stevesingo]

Pat Symmonds was pretty confident yesterday about how the new engines are going to look. It has all been decided by the FIA and we will know 31st of Oktober.

So here is what i thinks going to be the future

V6 Twin Turbo + FIA Standarized ERS
Consisting of a standard ES, standard MGU-K and standard GU-H (turbine+generator to recover exhaust gas energy, independant of the turbochargers)

Keep the fuel flow limiter, introduce a boost/pressure limiter to push the revs up to 18000rpm

It will be cheaper, louder, hybrid and less complex to develop, so more manufacturers will come into F1.

Will they?

There is no relevance of 18000rpm ICE in road vehicles. Therefore, they would need to be incredibly cheap to develop as they could only be seen as a marketing tool and not as a real world relevant R&D project.

Maybe not for Opel or Ford, but Porsche, Aston Martin or Corsworth would not mind. Also, non of current hybrid tech will ever trickle down to any daily commuter.

They have missed a trick here. No roadcar manufacturer is going to produce an 18krpm engine. My only thought is
a basic engine with control hybrid parts will appeal to the Cosworths, Aston Martin, Riccardos of the world.

Sure, none of the hybrid tech will trickle down. The current rules were framed badly. It seems the FiA don't look at the 2nd, 3rd order effect of rules.

[Jolle]

Will they?

There is no relevance of 18000rpm ICE in road vehicles. Therefore, they would need to be incredibly cheap to develop as they could only be seen as a marketing tool and not as a real world relevant R&D project.

Maybe not for Opel or Ford, but Porsche, Aston Martin or Corsworth would not mind. Also, non of current hybrid tech will ever trickle down to any daily commuter.

They have missed a trick here. No roadcar manufacturer is going to produce an 18krpm engine. My only thought is
a basic engine with control hybrid parts will appeal to the Cosworths, Aston Martin, Riccardos of the world.

Sure, none of the hybrid tech will trickle down. The current rules were framed badly. It seems the FiA don't look at the 2nd, 3rd order effect of rules.

I don’t agree. We’re not going to see the exact tech used in F1 right now, but a lot of lesssons and tech, especially in the control electronics, durability in electric motors and batteries are going to show up in road cars pretty soon.

[NL_Fer]

Road relevance is more of an excuse for big manufacturers to spend some ludicrous amount of money on an engine and don’t get their ass beaten by a small player like Cossworth or Ilmor.

[DiogoBrand]

About road relevance for the current power unit I have two questions:
Is there any part of the current formula that can filter down onto mainstream road cars? I mean, the whole point of this efficient PU, apart from shutting the critics of F1's wasteparty, was to create technology that could make road cars more efficient in the future, but that creates two questions for me:

Can we really see any of that in road cars in the future? I mean, at some point there must be a lot of people that didn't think they'd see some technologies from F1 on road cars, like active suspension, for example. But realistically, can we ever expect to see a Renault Clio with an MGU-H? Or turbulent jet ignition, or maybe even their carefully designed combustion chambers? I mean, Turbo and hybrid engines may become mainstream in the near future, but is it possible for all that other tech to reach the road, or maybe manufacturers are investing and struggling because of things that will be thrown in the bin way before they reach the road?

My second question is: Is it worth it to invest so much on efficiency, while making engines so complicated and expensive? I mean, what's the point of buying a brand new car engine that can do 20, maybe 25km/l, when any 20 year old hatchback can do 14? That technology doesn't just make the engines more expensive to make, but also a lot more expensive and complicated to mantain, and a lot more prone to unreliability, especially while the tech is new.

To sum it up: Is there anything in the current Power Unit formula that can translate itself into making road cars as a whole use less fuel?

[NL_Fer]

Nope, future car are either full electric like formula E or electric+range extender.

The range extender will not be complex or hyper efficient, but affordable and compact. It will only be used in situations where quick charging is not possible or the occasional long trips.

[Jolle]

Nope, future car are either full electric like formula E or electric+range extender.

The range extender will not be complex or hyper efficient, but affordable and compact. It will only be used in situations where quick charging is not possible or the occasional long trips.

In dense Western-Europe and mega-cities, yes. For the other 80% of the world, the infrastructure is far from going all electric. Range extenders are a possibility, but those are more inefficient hybrid systems.

The whole F1 PU isn't going to show up in an ordinary car soon, but parts of is pretty soon. It's not a coincidence that a company like Mahler have partnered with Ferrari to develop a pre-chamber ignition, this is going to show up pretty soon! Same will be for K-units for small turbo engines for large luxury salons to "smoothen the ride" instead of large 6 or 8 cylinder engines. Same goes for a electric supported TC, to get rid of turbo lag. The heat recovery will prob show up on trucks/busses within years, possible even as a retrofit.

a lot more at least then high revving V8-V10's with shower injectors, ridiculous bore-strokes and pneumatic valves.

[Tommy Cookers]

the TJI/other-name prechamber in a road car presumably eliminates the catalysts or at least the NOx catalyst
and helps those who like to make and those who like to buy expensive powerful cars, by giving unassailable green credibility

prechamber (heat dilution) engines have been developed by public funding and political will, F1 is just the launch medium
gas-fuelled heat dilution engines are in production eg for electrical generation

politics is stopping denying that heating is the dominant energy consumption and starting to admit its reality ....
so EVs are now a sideshow because the real need is now recognised - to reduce and decarbonise heating energy

[roon]

Greater combustion efficiency allows you to carry less fuel weight, get more power per fuel unit, use smaller radiators. Relevant to F1 and other motorsports. Left to their own free development paths, I don't see how, in a motorsports setting, battery electric vehicles will gain ground on ever more efficient ICEs attached to fuel tanks containing orders of magnitude more energy. The divide may deepen. Smaller engines carrying less fuel making similar power...

That a golden-age for production cars has occurred while perfecting this sort of tech is perhaps not a coincidence.

Direct competition between BEVs and ICEs would be great to see, and perhaps F1 is the venue for this--a way to accelerate battery research. But the disparity is great and handicapping or parity of some sort would be required. LMP1 has their own approach to this, balancing fuel use with battery capacity. Perhaps we could devise another.

[DiogoBrand]

I don't think the car makers will develop battery technology in any considerable way, when compared to mobile electronic industry.

the TJI/other-name prechamber in a road car presumably eliminates the catalysts or at least the NOx catalyst
and helps those who like to make and those who like to buy expensive powerful cars, by giving unassailable green credibility

prechamber (heat dilution) engines have been developed by public funding and political will, F1 is just the launch medium
gas-fuelled heat dilution engines are in production eg for electrical generation

politics is stopping denying that heating is the dominant energy consumption and starting to admit its reality ....
so EVs are now a sideshow because the real need is now recognised - to reduce and decarbonise heating energy

That fossil fueled vehicles have very little significance in pollution when compared to other sources shouldn't be latest news. Seems to me that the investment in efficiency will benefit the consumer's pocket, and especially the manufacturers' marketing way before it has a positive impact on the environment.

[DFX]

I don't think the car makers will develop battery technology in any considerable way, when compared to mobile electronic industry.

Well, Tesla already have the largest lithium battery factory in the world. Although it's not a major car maker, Tesla is gaining a lot of space and other will soon follow to at least develop hybrids.

[DiogoBrand]

I don't think the car makers will develop battery technology in any considerable way, when compared to mobile electronic industry.

Well, Tesla already have the largest lithium battery factory in the world. Although it's not a major car maker, Tesla is gaining a lot of space and other will soon follow to at least develop hybrids.

We have to take in consideration that a single tesla vehicle uses thousands of batteries, while a cell phone uses one. And I guess making batteries is way cheaper than developing them. So as far as I know the car industry still has very little impact in battery technology. (I'm not saying I'm certain, please correct me if I'm wrong)

[DFX]

I don't think the car makers will develop battery technology in any considerable way, when compared to mobile electronic industry.

Well, Tesla already have the largest lithium battery factory in the world. Although it's not a major car maker, Tesla is gaining a lot of space and other will soon follow to at least develop hybrids.

We have to take in consideration that a single tesla vehicle uses thousands of batteries, while a cell phone uses one. And I guess making batteries is way cheaper than developing them. So as far as I know the car industry still has very little impact in battery technology. (I'm not saying I'm certain, please correct me if I'm wrong)

I agree, but we have to consider that this is a new area of development that only recently have begun to receive attention from the auto industry. As demand grows, the industry will be pushed to develop better, lighter and more reliable batteries. In this sense F1 is in the right direction as this is a area of interest of the auto industry, as shown by FE grow.

[noname]

I don't think the car makers will develop battery technology in any considerable way, when compared to mobile electronic industry.

Well, Tesla already have the largest lithium battery factory in the world. Although it's not a major car maker, Tesla is gaining a lot of space and other will soon follow to at least develop hybrids.

So far there is no better alternative to lithium. However, to make a leap automotive has to come up with technology not relying on REE/REM. Recently VW tried to secure long term supply of REMs needed to make EVs, with automotive-typical arrogance, of course. They were shown middle finger by miners.