2017 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 20-22 October

[Jolle]

What if the transponder fails? That driver then gets an advantage over everyone else. Cars are different shapes, where would the transponder be? Short cars might get an advantage etc. Terrible idea. There was nothing wrong with the decision other than it's unpopular.

Very simpel. You put the transponder(s) on the centerline (all cars are max with anyway) and you give them 10cm extra space, to avoid discussions. They already have a lap time transponder, there is no discussion that we have to go back to hand clocked times?

And if it fails? There are many systems in F1, many transponders already, not really a ploblem.

It would suit F1, a technical sport, to find a technical solution instead of walls, traps, slippery surfaces or bumps. What we also don’t want is that the steward are giving all the drivers who go over the line 5s. This will cause mayhem for the viewers. “Driver A is in front of driver B but driver A has two 5 s penalties and driver B only one, but driver C already has 10, so he is actually behind them”

All other physical solutions also heighten risk. A wall speaks for itself of course, grass will make you loose control, skid. A skidding car (especially in a fight) is always bad. A car in a trap has to be taken out and is stationary while others are still on speed, etc etc.

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard (for cars, for motorbikes it’s another story), especially mid corner, where the throttle is closed anyway.

Positioning the transponder in the center of the car is obvious, what I meant was if it's further towards the front, or back, or the car is longer that would change how a car "cuts" a corner. The transponders for timing are irrelevant to this discussion as it doesn't matter where in the car they are positioned as long as they don't change position during the lap! How do you determine if they "cut" using a transponder? Would you need something placed in the track? What if even after cutting the corner, and the reduced power for n seconds an advantage is still gained? Is it legal at that point? Also, what if you can cut the corner, get 30% less power but still block the guy behind and maintain the position?

Like... on the centerline 100 mm in front of the rear wheel center line? Having a mandatory position for a sensor would be the least if the problems.

The transponders in the track could be simple passive magnatic style. The tech is very simple.

And for reference, blink the tail light double speed when activated.

With blocking, etc you already have the same thing, like Les Combes. You go over the rumble strips (with hurting your back!), dirty tires and come back on track with a speed disadvantage to the cars behind you. This way they don’t need the back-braking, car-destroying strips and cars won’t go flying (loosing traction/control, t-boned by the cars following)

It’s a digital gravel trap/rumblestip.

I even think it would improve racing because the risk of going off is just time, no damage. How many drivers complain about not able to push after a damaged floor?

[TAG]

In the end it's racing and what we saw with Verstappen and Kimi was the very definition of it. People screaming year ago that there wasn't enough overtaking in the sport is what got us DRS. IMO it's not about exceeding track limits, that's barking up the wrong tree. What we want is consistency and it's what we're NOT getting from the stewards. It's the pinnacle of sports car racing god dammit. Hire a team of professional referees like we have in every other major sport.

The stewarding program as it stands now is very broken, that's the problem, focus on the real issue. I'm just going to leave this here, same track, if you like racing, you'll get my point.

[Just_a_fan]

That Porsche battle is ridiculous! Great fun but definitely taking the micky.

[notsofast]

I agree it's about consistency. I prefer that drivers be penalized consistently for exceeding track limits. I'm also ok with drivers never being penalized for exceeding track limits. But I'm not ok with a rule that requires stewards to make a subjective decision about whether someone "gained an advantage". There is no objective and consistent way to measure advantage.

[santos]

In the end it's racing and what we saw with Verstappen and Kimi was the very definition of it. People screaming year ago that there wasn't enough overtaking in the sport is what got us DRS. IMO it's not about exceeding track limits, that's barking up the wrong tree. What we want is consistency and it's what we're NOT getting from the stewards. It's the pinnacle of sports car racing god dammit. Hire a team of professional referees like we have in every other major sport.

The stewarding program as it stands now is very broken, that's the problem, focus on the real issue. I'm just going to leave this here, same track, if you like racing, you'll get my point.

https://youtu.be/7rz1GBR6YTQ

I love motorsport... almost any kind. Basically, everything that have an engine and four wheels. But i do not support the kind of racing that is showed on the vídeo. There are limits... even Paris Dakar have limits of the track. I understand the frustration of Max and his fans, but if you cut a corner and gain advantage... you have to be penalized.

[NathanOlder]

Trouble is , if the stewards came oud and said "we dont care about track limits, take as much room as you like" like those Porsches racing,

They would still have to penalise Max, as he shortened the lap. Cut the corner, that Must 100% of the time be punished. Like running on and straight lining a chicane. At chicanes they need measures like the Rettifilo chicane in monza. And if you dont go through the cones/bollards, you automatically get a 5 second penalty. If you were pushed off and cut, they you both get 5 second penalties. It would stop it straight away as it would be better to balls up your line and compromise corner exit rather than take a 5 sec pen.

[Jolle]

Trouble is , if the stewards came oud and said "we dont care about track limits, take as much room as you like" like those Porsches racing,

They would still have to penalise Max, as he shortened the lap. Cut the corner, that Must 100% of the time be punished. Like running on and straight lining a chicane. At chicanes they need measures like the Rettifilo chicane in monza. And if you dont go through the cones/bollards, you automatically get a 5 second penalty. If you were pushed off and cut, they you both get 5 second penalties. It would stop it straight away as it would be better to balls up your line and compromise corner exit rather than take a 5 sec pen.

The problem with that is that you’ll get that half the field will drive around with one or more penalties and in the COTA finish, still the same kind of shambles. Penalties work best if they are instant. If my electronics system was used, Kimi would have finished third and max would be cursing and fuming over the finish line, angry at himself that he took too much curb.

[Just_a_fan]

They would still have to penalise Max, as he shortened the lap. Cut the corner, that Must 100% of the time be punished.

The thing is, if you don't care about track limits you find that people make the track shorter by driving a longer line. If I can drive around the outside of a tight corner I will drive further but do so much quicker. Result is a lower lap time i.e. I have "shortened the lap".

So you either apply track limits or you don't. You don't pick and choose which ones to apply just because someone "shortened the lap".

The rules don't mention track length, they mention "advantage". Going outside track limits in full control is always done to "gain an advantage". That's why it's done.

"One rule for all or no rule for anyone" is the key.

[GrandAxe]

The transponders can be placed on either side of the front wing, because measurements are standard here and that's the part of the car that would go off track first.
Penalties can be served on the straights - just to make things wicked, in DRS zones with the DRS sensor triggering the punishment.

[NathanOlder]

They would still have to penalise Max, as he shortened the lap. Cut the corner, that Must 100% of the time be punished.

The thing is, if you don't care about track limits you find that people make the track shorter by driving a longer line. .

The track will be longer not shorter.

And again, cutting the corner is not the same as running out wide. This is just people not accepting the fact it was Max who got a penalty for something ONLY Max did that was against the rules

[Just_a_fan]

The track will be longer not shorter.

No, the lap will be shorter because lap time will be reduced and only time matters in racing, not distance. The winner is the driver who covers the required number of laps in the shortest time. Pole is given to the driver who has the quickest time. If driving a longer distance off track is quicker then it makes the lap shorter.

And again, cutting the corner is not the same as running out wide.

It is if the result is the same. If time is gained in either case then it is the same.

This is just people not accepting the fact it was Max who got a penalty for something ONLY Max did that was against the rules

Nope, this is about consistency of application of the rules as written in the Regulations. The Regulations talk about "leaving the track" and "lasting advantage", nothing about "shortening the lap". You either leave the track or you don't and you either gain a lasting advantage or you don't. In Max's case he left the track and gained a lasting advantage. If he had driven around the outside of Kimi, off the track, and gained the place he would be just as guilty of leaving the track and gaining an advantage. Indeed, Kimi did just this at Spa's La Source hairpin a few years ago as I remember.

At COTA, we had drivers going off track left, right and centre. Charlie says "I don't think it gains an advantage". Really? Why would a driver go off track unless doing so gained him an advantage? Running wide to allow earlier full application of power gains an advantage; running wide to prevent a slide or spin gains an advantage; running wide having braked late gains an advantage. All of these things happened on more than one occasion and none of them appear to have been penalised except for one incident right at the end.

[KeiKo403]

100% agree with Just_a_fan!

Going over the white line like that can only mean you're travelling too fast to take the corner within the limits. A tighter steering input to keep within the white line (track limit) would result in scrubbing off speed, having to lift off or brake, or potentially even oversteer and a spin. Ergo, keeping foot planted, taking a wider line and exceeding track limits = an advantage is gained.

Failing to take the penalty of scrubbing off speed, braking more, lifting off or having a spin is taking an advantage. I don't know how many other ways to say it.

[TAG]

All of these things happened on more than one occasion and none of them appear to have been penalised except for one incident right at the end.

If this had been a Renault and a Toro Rosso for 12th place they wouldn't have even bothered. That's what the reality is but given that it involved a very popular but polarizing driver and a very popular but polarizing team we've had the dozen pages of extra discussion.

[NathanOlder]

@just_a _fan

Using the outside of each corner DOES NOT MAKE A LAP SHORTER. It may well make it faster or quicker. I can see how you tru to bend the words.

If 100 motorsport fans are asked how long Daytona Speedway is, every single one of them will say 2.5miles (4km) No one would think about lap time when asked if a circuit is long or short. They think about distance. And the same can be said about if you run out wide on corner exits , it makes it Longer but as you can carry more speed, it makes it faster.

[NathanOlder]

.

No skin in the game for me, but I've made my point and it bears repeating. Anyone in America watching that looking to give this F1 thing a try went, WTF?! that's bullsh!t! ...and will likely not tune in again.

Id imagine most Americans looking to give a --- were too busy watching Hamilton and Mercedes win to give a sheet about 3rd place.