2021 Engine thread

[DiogoBrand]

I think a valid point was raised by Tommy Cookers. People talk more and more about how petrol fueled vehicles are unsustainable, but taking in consideration that cars are only responsible for a fraction of man-made emissions, and also that a big chunk of the electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, then what's the point of EV's, considering the environment? I would assume it's more efficient to burn petrol on an engine that powers a car, than burning petrol to produce electricity that will then charge and power a car.

As I said before, from my point of view, "the environment" in the car industry is much more a source for marketing than for actual results.

[DFX]

I think a valid point was raised by Tommy Cookers. People talk more and more about how petrol fueled vehicles are unsustainable, but taking in consideration that cars are only responsible for a fraction of man-made emissions, and also that a big chunk of the electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, then what's the point of EV's, considering the environment? I would assume it's more efficient to burn petrol on an engine that powers a car, than burning petrol to produce electricity that will then charge and power a car.

As I said before, from my point of view, "the environment" in the car industry is much more a source for marketing than for actual results.

Again the EV market is still in its first stages, Tesla begun basically as a case proof that EV could be marktable and more efficient than combustion vehicles. Efficiency is the key here, even with the actual tecnology, EV's convert about 60% of the eletric energy from the grid to power the wheels, whilst a conventional combustion car converts only 20% of the fuel not accounted the power lossses due to fuel refining.

The point is, only Tesla markets an 'accessible' fully EV in the world today. They had to construct the biggest ion-lithium factory in the planet because there is no supply chain for this kind of market.

Now imagine if every major car manufacture had at least one fully EV model in their line. How this would completely change the interest of the industry and create investments in research and development of new technologies, aswell as new companies providing solutions creating a supply chain for this market.

One more thing, you cant extract petroleum from your backyard and refine it to use in your house or your car, but you could invest in solar panels to generate energy for those purposes. You are at least gaining the option of autonomy.

[DFX]

The fossil fuel usage is mostly coal.

[mrluke]

http://blog.euromonitor.com/wp-content/ ... s-2014.png

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. ... -20131.png

The fossil fuel usage is mostly coal.

Ummm not convinced that the data for that chart is correct.

Is this an average over the year of energy generated or a snap shot on a particular time/day?

[DFX]

http://blog.euromonitor.com/wp-content/ ... s-2014.png

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. ... -20131.png

The fossil fuel usage is mostly coal.

Ummm not convinced that the data for that chart is correct.

Is this an average over the year of energy generated or a snap shot on a particular time/day?

It only takes into account electrical power generation, basically cities, homes and industry as this was the topic of interest of some members of the forum. Petrol is not, usually, used directly to produce electrical energy.



This is a chart from US since the 50's.

[Jolle]

One of the simple possibilities for the future is bio fuel, which is 100% carbon neutral.

If we only didn’t need to feed all the corn and grain to livestock

[DiogoBrand]

http://blog.euromonitor.com/wp-content/ ... s-2014.png

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. ... -20131.png

The fossil fuel usage is mostly coal.

I don't think it makes a difference for the environment if the pollution is generated by petrol or coal.

One of the simple possibilities for the future is bio fuel, which is 100% carbon neutral.

If we only didn’t need to feed all the corn and grain to livestock

I think I can talk about bio fuel, since I live in Brazil and it's more common here than in all other countries except for the USA if I'm not mistaken.

When people started using alcohol on their petrol cars, it was very economical, since it was way cheaper, but just a few years later the price has risen to the point where the difference in price doesn't compensate for the difference in consumption.
Most cars are launched as "Flex fuel", which produces engines not good enough for one OR the other, with compression ratios that make them prone to pinging all the time.
When the price for ethanol increased, the government starting putting ethanol in the gasoline as an incentive to the industry. As a result our gasoline is now 27% alcohol, which makes for worse consumption, increases the price of alcohol and doesn't decrease the price of gasoline.
The deforestation created to grow corn and other crops to generate ethanol far outweighs the pollution that it avoids.
Unless you have a massive production in agriculture, it's not worth it to produce ethanol economically-wise.

All in all, I'd say it hasn't worked very well here.

[DFX]

One of the simple possibilities for the future is bio fuel, which is 100% carbon neutral.

If we only didn’t need to feed all the corn and grain to livestock

Bio fuel is a good option, but it needs too much space to produce it. Only countries with heavy enphasis on agricultural economy and large territories available for farming such as US and Brazil can afford to produce it in large scales. And food is number 1 priority for these markets, which production would directly compete with bio fuel.

[wuzak]

I would assume it's more efficient to burn petrol on an engine that powers a car, than burning petrol to produce electricity that will then charge and power a car.

Yes and no.

An engine in a series hybrid/extended range EV can run at a constant speed, at the point of peak efficiency. A normal petrol car runs the majority of the time at low rpm and throttled, so not necessarily at peak efficiency.

On the other hand, some energy is lost in converting to electrical energy (not much), storing the electricity (more significant) and converting back to mechanical energy (not much).

But the real bonus with the series hybrid is that the engine used can be smaller and it doesn't need to run all of the time.

A series hybrid may have an electric only range of 50-100km. Beyond that the engine only needs to operate when the battery is low and/or when maximum power is required.

[roon]

Proposal: Inversely relate energy flow with energy density, and permit any type of energy storage so long as it is safe. Petrol, diesel, ethanol, hydrogen, Li-ion, or combinations thereof for use in a hybrid powertrain. This is an extension of the method used in WEC to equalize diesel & gasoline.

For example, teams which choose a Li-ion battery energy-store will be permitted a maximum energy flow rate 10x greater (approximately) than that of a team which chooses a gasoline energy-store, as a well developed Li-ion battery will have around 1/10 the energy density of gasoline.

It may seem absurd to allow an electric car 10x more power, but there would be diminishing returns and these power levels may not ultimately be developed nor required. Using more power (acceleration, aero drag) drains an already weak ES, and there are limits to what the tyres can handle.

The great equalizer here would be pit stops. Less energy-dense cars will need to pit for a refresh of their ES far more often. I envision swappable battery packs in this scenario. Further equalizers would be that all cars will still be held to the same aerodynamic, minimum-weight, & tire use regulations.

At times, the petrol cars will appeared handicapped as they would always be getting passed by the electric cars. At other times, it will be the electric cars which appear handicapped, as they need to pit frequently, losing positions. But all of this is an honest reflection of each technology's current limits.

As such the grid in F1 can reflect the diversity of offerings found in the marketplace. There is no single-best drivetrain solution for motorsport nor industry nor consumers; it is dependent upon application and tastes.

The result is, ideally, a diversity of drivetrains on the grid fielded by companies from their respective industries, each with room for development, all of which have competitive potential through the density-flow factors chosen. This continues F1's potential as a laboratory and proving ground.

Would a team choose electric drive if, despite having the quickest-lapping cars, they had to pit every 10 laps?



*In the graph sketched above, read the horizontal axis as an increasing flow-rate from left to right. Less dense ES are permitted greater energy flow rates, but will require more frequent pitting.

[NL_Fer]

One of the simple possibilities for the future is bio fuel, which is 100% carbon neutral.

If we only didn’t need to feed all the corn and grain to livestock

Bio fuel is a good option, but it needs too much space to produce it. Only countries with heavy enphasis on agricultural economy and large territories available for farming such as US and Brazil can afford to produce it in large scales. And food is number 1 priority for these markets, which production would directly compete with bio fuel.

It is only a good option if no space is used. Biofuel/energy should only be produced from biowaste, not from fresh-grown stocks. However i like the idea of flash charging the ERS system.

[Jolle]

One of the simple possibilities for the future is bio fuel, which is 100% carbon neutral.

If we only didn’t need to feed all the corn and grain to livestock

Bio fuel is a good option, but it needs too much space to produce it. Only countries with heavy enphasis on agricultural economy and large territories available for farming such as US and Brazil can afford to produce it in large scales. And food is number 1 priority for these markets, which production would directly compete with bio fuel.

It is only a good option if no space is used. Biofuel/energy should only be produced from biowaste, not from fresh-grown stocks. However i like the idea of flash charging the ERS system.

70-80% of the crops is grow for animal consumption (beef, pork, poultry and dairy) and around 50% of the oil is used for transport of those things. So... it's a choice....

As for the charts how electric power is produced right now, it is indeed a chain and EV power vehicles aren't as green as they seem to be right now. But in the ongoing progress, it's about cleaning up the different parts of the chain one by one. It's no use to invest in clean energy if there is nothing to use it. EV's are a small step, the bigger step is how to swing those charts. Thats why for instance Mercedes and Tesla in particular are also busy in finding solutions for that, like their home batteries and with Tesla, their solar roof tiles.

still a long long way to go, not just with EV but also with rearranging how to use the resources available.

[Cold Fussion]

snip

I would prefer to keep the same no refueling rules and limit the electrical power to the LHV of petrol * the fuel flow rate. For hybrids you might do something like hybrid_fuel_mdot=nominal_mdot - electric_power/lhv. The electric cars would still have close to double the theatrical power advantage to a petrol powered car, and perhaps with clever strategy could potentially be race competitive with an ICE car. From a public perception POV you could then simply see the 1~5% improvements in battery density year on year until suddenly electric cars routinely beat ICE cars at which point the technology is probably close to ready to go mainstream.

With Liberty taking over though I doubt we'll see anything interesting on the engine side.

[roon]

snip

I would prefer to keep the same no refueling rules and limit the electrical power to the LHV of petrol * the fuel flow rate. For hybrids you might do something like hybrid_fuel_mdot=nominal_mdot - electric_power/lhv. The electric cars would still have close to double the theatrical power advantage to a petrol powered car, and perhaps with clever strategy could potentially be race competitive with an ICE car. From a public perception POV you could then simply see the 1~5% improvements in battery density year on year until suddenly electric cars routinely beat ICE cars at which point the technology is probably close to ready to go mainstream.

With Liberty taking over though I doubt we'll see anything interesting on the engine side.

I don't think we're going to see batteries that competitive for a long while. Around the time fusion power is perfected, right after the Singularity, before the Second Coming and the collapse of civilization due to climate change brought on by the mass production of flying cars. Regardless, the batteries work well enough now for their current purposes. The technology is good enough to "go mainstream," and already is, despite its shortcomings. Which got me thinking about how the Teslas & Panasonics of the world might enter F1. But perhaps this sort of tortoise vs hare type racing, with the fast cars hampered by their frequent pit stops, would not be sufficiently entertaining.

[Cold Fussion]

It's only ready for the primetime if you're prepared to accept all the tradeoffs just to have the green image. From every single performance metric (except maybe lifetime cost if you do a lot of kilometers) electric vehicles lose out to ICE cars. If energy density and charge rate were 5x better then probably 99.9% of ICE's could go electric with no difference to the end user. I consider primetime ready when they would be a slot in replacement for 90-95% of people and we aren't there yet.