2017 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 20-22 October

[KeiKo403]

As we are talking about track limits. To me the key word here is limit, I think of it like this. The pit lane has a speed LIMIT and anyone who exceeds that is given a penalty, it's black and white. The track also has a LIMIT defined by the white lines and penalties should be enforced black and white here too with the caveats here being if you've been forced wide, spun off or are avoiding an accident.

Or what about the pit lane exit white line limit, any going over this line is automatic penalty, why if you haven't impeded any other driver or gained an advantage?

Too many rules seem (on the face of it) similar. So why are the penalties so inconsistent?

[Just_a_fan]

@just_a _fan

Using the outside of each corner DOES NOT MAKE A LAP SHORTER. It may well make it faster or quicker. I can see how you tru to bend the words.

Making it faster means gaining an advantage. No one other than you cares about the physical length of the track. The only metric is "advantage". "Gaining an advantage" = "bad". That's it. Nothing more.

The problem is that Charlie decides, apparently by sticking his finger in the air, when an advantage might be gained. So we have inconsistent application of track limits. That's the problem - not cutting corners, as you seem to think, but an inconsistent definition of "gaining an advantage".

[Just_a_fan]

Or what about the pit lane exit white line limit, any going over this line is automatic penalty, why if you haven't impeded any other driver or gained an advantage?

That's a safety rule. Back in the day, drivers would exit the pits and try to get across to the racing line straight away. This caused problems as they were obviously slower than the cars already on the track.

[Fulcrum]

@just_a _fan

Using the outside of each corner DOES NOT MAKE A LAP SHORTER. It may well make it faster or quicker. I can see how you tru to bend the words.

Making it faster means gaining an advantage. No one other than you cares about the physical length of the track. The only metric is "advantage". "Gaining an advantage" = "bad". That's it. Nothing more.

The problem is that Charlie decides, apparently by sticking his finger in the air, when an advantage might be gained. So we have inconsistent application of track limits. That's the problem - not cutting corners, as you seem to think, but an inconsistent definition of "gaining an advantage".

The definition may be inconsistent but, even assuming the 'inconsistent' application of the law, Max clearly gained an advantage - positions changed hands.

[Saxmansaxman]

Yes, inconsistency is the problem. I bet the stewards hate the rule too.
I am a fairly high level cycling commissaire. Rules that are not clear are
Trouble in any sport. Many times we have to clarify at the riders meeting.


Outside the track limits = automatically derated down the next DRS zone
sounds ok to me. Taillight flashing ahead of it to warn all. Driver advised
Of the infraction early too. Maybe one lap delay for appeal? It would have
To happen quickly.

[Saxmansaxman]

Oh, and just as one US fan's viewpoint. The Buffer introductions were unlistenable. Just awful.

I actually had to mute. Not all Americans are clowns. Quite a few ... but not all.

[KeiKo403]

27) DRIVING
27.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
27.2 Drivers must observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits at all
times.
27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not
deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part
of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.
27.4 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be
deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.

[Sieper]

"without a justifiable reason."

that is the only part that gives some leeway to the pass, he did avoid Kimi turning him to him when he was already 50% beside him. Kimi was too late with that move, he had left a gap. That Kimi then aborted his move Max could not have anticipated, that Is why he moved of the track. To my viewpoint he then made the further decision to use it and therefor the penalty is given correctly but just this rulebook alone doesn't mandate the punishment just yet. It is still (and will always be) all about interpretation.

[Just_a_fan]

I think what annoyed some was that Max / RedBull weren't given the opportunity to "put their side" in the usual manner. It was referred by Charlie, looked at and decided in about 5 minutes with no chance to present mitigating reasons. Now, those reasons might have fallen on deaf ears but it is usual to be able to present a case to the stewards.

One thing that comes out of the incident will, I'm sure, be a more cynical Max. Next time he'll do the same thing but make sure one wheel is on the line. If the other driver turns in then it's their fault.

[KeiKo403]

but lets just take the part of the regs, ignore what Max did and look at everyone else who runs wide.
Yes, corner cutting is gaining MORE of an advantage than running wide (most times) but running wide is still gaining an advantage.

Therefore:
"27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not
deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason."

Unless of course a justifiable reason is to go quicker?

[garyjpaterson]

but lets just take the part of the regs, ignore what Max did and look at everyone else who runs wide.
Yes, corner cutting is gaining MORE of an advantage than running wide (most times) but running wide is still gaining an advantage.

Therefore:
"27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not
deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason."

Unless of course a justifiable reason is to go quicker?

Yeah there were areas of the track where everyone cut the corner past the white line (sector 1 in the esses), every lap. Why? Because it was faster. Is that a justifiable reason, absolutely not.

What if at the next race, Max decides to deliberately cut each corner when in clean air catching the car ahead, but of course keeping within track limits when it comes to passing another car.
Would he get penalised for that? You would think so, but how is that different from whats been done all race at Austin?

[KeiKo403]

Not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. Just to be clear I hate how the track limits rule has been allowed to get to this place. I feel that for the remaining 3 races of the season the drivers should be told track limits are being enforced to the regulations.

If that means 3 difficult races for fans/spectators/stewards with results changing post race then so be it but give the drivers 3 races (which they shouldn't need may I add, as they should be within the limits anyway) to get to grips with racing by the rules and then come 2018, a fresh start where the rules are the rules and they are just followed.

I'll add that I'm not bothered about track limit infringements in FP1/FP2/FP3 but anything in Qualifying should be lap time wiped, and anything in the race should be penalised. Maybe some new penalties like drive a longer and green section of track within the next 2 laps. So many of the current tracks have the option to do this, like a rallycross joker lap.

[garyjpaterson]

Not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. Just to be clear I hate how the track limits rule has been allowed to get to this place. I feel that for the remaining 3 races of the season the drivers should be told track limits are being enforced to the regulations.

If that means 3 difficult races for fans/spectators/stewards with results changing post race then so be it but give the drivers 3 races (which they shouldn't need may I add, as they should be within the limits anyway) to get to grips with racing by the rules and then come 2018, a fresh start where the rules are the rules and they are just followed.

I'll add that I'm not bothered about track limit infringements in FP1/FP2/FP3 but anything in Qualifying should be lap time wiped, and anything in the race should be penalised. Maybe some new penalties like drive a longer and green section of track within the next 2 laps. So many of the current tracks have the option to do this, like a rallycross joker lap.

I quite agree with you!

I don't like how you can basically drive where you want in the race as long as you didn't overtake someone while doing it - the rules should be the same regardless of whether you are racing on your own or going wheel to wheel.

I'm just saying that according to the way track limits are handled now, it seems okay to cut the corner (as was happening all race in Austin) so long as you don't pass someone whilst doing it, as only that is seen to be 'gaining an advantage'.

To me, its always a lasting advantage as it'd probably take a tenth or two a lap more to stay within the lines, which is why they are cut. But F1 doesn't see it like that, which is a shame.

[KeiKo403]

yup, you're spot on there.

I guess for anyone still saying the penalty was right as he overtook Kimi.....would you be ok with no penalty if Max had cut the corner, Kimi not being there, and then passed him in the next corner. Baring in mind that the initial corner cut enabled the legal pass in the following corner?

Still a track limit infringement but there was no overtake at the same time so that's fair yea?

[NathanOlder]

@just_a _fan

Using the outside of each corner DOES NOT MAKE A LAP SHORTER. It may well make it faster or quicker. I can see how you tru to bend the words.

Making it faster means gaining an advantage. No one other than you cares about the physical length of the track. The only metric is "advantage". "Gaining an advantage" = "bad". That's it. Nothing more.

The problem is that Charlie decides, apparently by sticking his finger in the air, when an advantage might be gained. So we have inconsistent application of track limits. That's the problem - not cutting corners, as you seem to think, but an inconsistent definition of "gaining an advantage".

The whole point of my argument was to say that cutting a corner is worse than running wide but you see them as the same thing which i find very odd. The reason Max was done was because he was the ONLY one to cut the corner. So just accept that and we can move on.