2021 Engine thread

[Zynerji]

Bernoulli Convergenator

https://youtu.be/c1rWGpQBc8E

[wuzak]

It's only ready for the primetime if you're prepared to accept all the tradeoffs just to have the green image. From every single performance metric (except maybe lifetime cost if you do a lot of kilometers) electric vehicles lose out to ICE cars. If energy density and charge rate were 5x better then probably 99.9% of ICE's could go electric with no difference to the end user. I consider primetime ready when they would be a slot in replacement for 90-95% of people and we aren't there yet.

Something like 80-90% of car journeys could be done with electric vehicles now.

The majority of trips are short distance, less than 50km.

[Jolle]

It's only ready for the primetime if you're prepared to accept all the tradeoffs just to have the green image. From every single performance metric (except maybe lifetime cost if you do a lot of kilometers) electric vehicles lose out to ICE cars. If energy density and charge rate were 5x better then probably 99.9% of ICE's could go electric with no difference to the end user. I consider primetime ready when they would be a slot in replacement for 90-95% of people and we aren't there yet.

Something like 80-90% of car journeys could be done with electric vehicles now.

The majority of trips are short distance, less than 50km.

Yes.

One of the main advantages of EV's right now is that you separate the place of use and the place of pollution. In the countryside EV's don't have an advantage yet. Not only the infrastructure isn't so that you can drive without planning but at the moment ICE's are more efficient in those circumstances. But if we go to megacities like Shanghai, Beijing, Mexico-City, London, etc etc, taking away the pollution of cars and trucks have a big impact on the local air (and noise) levels and because of the slow speeds and traffic jams (EV's are very efficient at standing still ).

[NL_Fer]

31st October, at what time are we going to hear something from the FIA?

I bet on

V6 Twin Turbo
FIA standard ERS (MGU-K MGU-H independant of the Turbochargers)
120kg/h flow limit

[hurril]

31st October, at what time are we going to hear something from the FIA?

I bet on

V6 Twin Turbo
FIA standard ERS (MGU-K MGU-H independant of the Turbochargers)
120kg/h flow limit

So no "electric compressor mode" anymore then?

[3jawchuck]

I'm betting on less restrictions and less standardisation. I'm not very good at gambling though.

edit: Good job I didn't put any money on that.

[garyjpaterson]

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-and-formul ... egulations

• 1.6 Litre, V6 Turbo Hybrid

• 3000rpm higher engine running speed range to improve the sound

• Prescriptive internal design parameters to restrict development costs and discourage extreme designs and running conditions

• Removal of the MGUH

• More powerful MGUK with focus on manual driver deployment in race together with option to save up energy over several laps to give a driver controlled tactical element to racing

• Single turbo with dimensional constraints and weight limits

• Standard energy store and control electronics

• High Level of external prescriptive design to give ‘Plug-And-Play’ engine/chassis/transmission swap capability

• Intention to investigate tighter fuel regulations and limits on number of fuels used

[garyjpaterson]

I'm a total noob when it comes to this stuff, but regarding the higher RPM limit, surely we need a much higher fuel flow limit to make the most of this? I mean do the current cars ever come close to the 15k limit we already have?

18k RPM could sound neat if they actually make use of it.

[cplchanb]

I'm a total noob when it comes to this stuff, but regarding the higher RPM limit, surely we need a much higher fuel flow limit to make the most of this? I mean do the current cars ever come close to the 15k limit we already have?

18k RPM could sound neat if they actually make use of it.

youre right, a 3k boost means nothing if the fuel flow limit doesnt go up drastically as well. teams dont go over 12k these days so theyll still stick with 12-13k even if the limit was raised to 18k

[bauc]

Will this brings us back to push to pass and push to defend, having into consideration that Ros's said many times that one of his priorities is to get rid of the DRS?

[Juzh]

I'm a total noob when it comes to this stuff, but regarding the higher RPM limit, surely we need a much higher fuel flow limit to make the most of this? I mean do the current cars ever come close to the 15k limit we already have?

18k RPM could sound neat if they actually make use of it.

youre right, a 3k boost means nothing if the fuel flow limit doesnt go up drastically as well. teams dont go over 12k these days so theyll still stick with 12-13k even if the limit was raised to 18k

• 3000rpm higher engine running speed range to improve the sound

This means they will either simply move 100 kg/h from 10500 rpm up to 13500 rpm (which will result in loss of power), OR (hopefully) they will actually proportionally increase max fuel flow and thus power output will rise significantly.

Latter one makes more sense IMO, since they're removing the MGU-H and a considerably chunk of available power with it.

Also, I'm extremely hopefull FIA succedes in abolishing the MGU-H. While it's true the thing itself is a technological masterpiece, it's also true it's the primary reason current hybrids are such a money pit.

Coupled with more fuel flow, increased power and no anti-lag 2021 cars should be much harder to drive.

[Jolle]

I'm a total noob when it comes to this stuff, but regarding the higher RPM limit, surely we need a much higher fuel flow limit to make the most of this? I mean do the current cars ever come close to the 15k limit we already have?

18k RPM could sound neat if they actually make use of it.

youre right, a 3k boost means nothing if the fuel flow limit doesnt go up drastically as well. teams dont go over 12k these days so theyll still stick with 12-13k even if the limit was raised to 18k

If you want higher revs (without making a step back in technical development) is raising the minimal fuel flow limit revs, which are now at 10.500 rpm. This is why they all only go to 12.000 rpm, so with an upshift they fall back to 10.500, keeping it as low as possible for best internal friction efficiency. Because its a turbo engine, the pressure inside the cilinders just drops, but the air/fuel mixture will stay the same. Less power per stroke but more revs. Only raising the FFR won't change the revs, would just give more power.

For many here the logic of efficiency, turbo engines and the impact and use of the fuel flow limit is still not entirely clear.

"in the old days" with NA engines, more air = more fuel. To get more air you needed more revs so you could put in more fuel to get more power.

With a turbo engine, revs or engine capacity are not a part of the fuel to power equation. With a turbo you easily and more efficiently get more air trough the engine just raise the boost. This means it doesn't matter in theory if you have a 1.2l four cylinder engine at 20.000rpm, a 2.0 v8 at 5000 rpm or even a 0.9 v4 at 8000 rpm. Its all about how much air can you get into the turbo to maximise the fuel flow.

thats why every racing series has a limit in either airflow (with a boost or restrictor) or a fuel flow limiter. Even in NA cars, the amount of air is limited trough engine capacity and/or max revs. This limits the max output of an engine.

You can't swop the regulations of NA and TC engines...

[gdogg371]

Why is the MGU-H being taken off the table? Heard that rumoured for a while, but to me it is the most interesting piece of technology in the hybrid era. Is it because it is the one with the highest RnD costs?

[santos]

Why is the MGU-H being taken off the table? Heard that rumoured for a while, but to me it is the most interesting piece of technology in the hybrid era. Is it because it is the one with the highest RnD costs?

Because it was the expensive, hard to make it work, it's one of the biggest advantages of Mercedes...

[digitalrurouni]

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... s-proposed

Bummer about the MGU-H always thought that bit of tech was the most fascinating amd possibly more real world relevant because heat is sonreadily accessbable as a waste byproduct!