Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Going buy power output maybe the wheel is about 80 mm inducer and 70 mm exducer... Less blades mean less surface area and less obstruction for more flow (more top end) however efficiency drops. They would use trial and error i guess.

The compressor wheel might have a loop hole. Honda could have made an air box with an adjustable " bullet" shape protruding into the turbine to tune the air flow charecteristics between races. The intake pipe to the turbine is free to change right?

I was thinking 74 to 88mm, less blades doesn't always mean more flow as you can make larger blades, the area of the space between the blades can be the same with 3 4 5 6 7 8 or 9 blades. If we think of each blade as an aerofoil you can easily see the effect of larger blades, in the same way you see the effect of a larger wing. Do you want a bunch of small wings or a few larger ones, you have to find the right compromise.

That is the thing though, turbine blades don't work like aeroplane wing profiles. That is a weird sort of thinking.

I am weird...

Of course you're right they're not air plane wings, only similarity being they still follow the same rules of exploiting pressure differentials to do work.

[PlatinumZealot]

I was thinking 74 to 88mm, less blades doesn't always mean more flow as you can make larger blades, the area of the space between the blades can be the same with 3 4 5 6 7 8 or 9 blades. If we think of each blade as an aerofoil you can easily see the effect of larger blades, in the same way you see the effect of a larger wing. Do you want a bunch of small wings or a few larger ones, you have to find the right compromise.

That is the thing though, turbine blades don't work like aeroplane wing profiles. That is a weird sort of thinking.

But they do. Especially when you begin to optimize the airflow and you use high flow turbines.
It all depends on the used dimensions and design pressures. Most automotive turbos are diagonal turbines (although most of the time they are called radial turbines) and therefore the blades should be "wing shaped" although most of the time they are not due to manufacuring issues.
(The optimum dimensions for a certain speed and pressure is given by the Cordier diagram like this or this)
But in F1 I certainly would expect them to just produce the best turbine shape without regard to manufacturing issues.

The turbocharger blade is a wall between two passages and the shape of those passages is is the focus then the profile comes from that. (sort of yhe inverse of how you do a plane wing).
As you know the profile is three dimmensional. The gas turns through a number of axes on its way out of the turbine.

I think i would analyse the gas passing through the passage not split in two like an air plane wing. (the gas hits the turbine pretty much face on.. Opposite of plane wing which is near parallel). The plane wing stalls when the gas hits face one too.

There is also a ramp at the base of the turbine wheel.

Strange to analyse it like a aeroplane wing though there are similar elements i admit.

[Sasha]

I was thinking 74 to 88mm, less blades doesn't always mean more flow as you can make larger blades, the area of the space between the blades can be the same with 3 4 5 6 7 8 or 9 blades. If we think of each blade as an aerofoil you can easily see the effect of larger blades, in the same way you see the effect of a larger wing. Do you want a bunch of small wings or a few larger ones, you have to find the right compromise.

That is the thing though, turbine blades don't work like aeroplane wing profiles. That is a weird sort of thinking.

I am weird...

Of course you're right they're not air plane wings, only similarity being they still follow the same rules of exploiting pressure differentials to do work.

Look more at submarine propellors and for some weird reason odd number of blades work better.That design is now going into modern Turboprop and Turbofan designs.(Americans been making that design since the 60's,USSR stole it in the mid 80's and just now being used in production airplanes.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=Sasha]
Look more at submarine propellors and for some weird reason odd number of blades work better.That design is now going into modern Turboprop and Turbofan designs.(Americans been making that design since the 60's,USSR stole it in the mid 80's and just now being used in production airplanes.[/quote]

some evidence, reasoning or explanation of these remarkable statements would be appreciated
what is 'that design' ?

see the legendary Steve Wittman's work reportedly in 1947
https://flycorvair.net/2014/02/25/myths ... efficency/

and 1970s US work - report by newspaper says odd number of blades can be quieter
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/24/scien ... wanted=all

and current 'scimitar' stuff (imo distinctly unlike a submarine prop)
http://www.raisbeck.com/blast/032213/Sw ... es_v11.pdf
http://hartzellprop.com/hartzell-2-blad ... dinal-rgs/
http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/props/index.asp

about the only prop plane in flying existence with supersonic prop tips is the ( 2 blade ungeared prop) Harvard/T6
interestingly there is no extra noise apparent to the pilot

[Sasha]

Scimitar

To solve Wave Drag they use a blade with different swept back angle from base to tip and with modern CAD the new designs do not have to have Narrow Chord blades.(wide chord blade push more air/water)
The Germans started this research during the WW2 era and the Americans took it from there.Hit production success in the water first(and making those screws are still top secret) because the metal/composite/computer tech wasn't ready for air uses(jet, turbine,propellar) until the 1990's but not hitting production until the 2000's.

In water it solves cavitation, in air it solves the problems caused by breaking the sound barrier.The next gen. submarines are going to a pulse jet(smaller blades with more swept and no blade tips so more control over bubbles(air.....noise).

Back to your Honda PU channel now.

[Wazari]

One thing to keep in mind if you're going to compare a propulsion propeller to a turbocharger turbine is the confined housing that the turbine is housed in and what it's connected to. A very wise man once told me, "Think of a turbocharger as a fan within a fan..."

[Thunder]

I moved the Team Chatter (Zak Brown Interview about why the relationship didn't work and the following Discussion) to the Team Thread.

Guys is it really that hard to just stay technical in this Thread? Same thing every Day.

[HPD]

I'm sorry Thunder, it was my fault.
But, Honda is not only "motor", it is also a company and a team. We do not have a place to talk about Honda. And if you think that the right place to talk about Honda is in Mclaren's forum, you're very wrong.
The Mclaren forum became a place to talk about how cool the chassis is and how bad the Honda engine is. Not to mention that Renault is more talked about than Honda and nobody says anything ..

I'll keep posting news here at the Honda Forum. Whether it's engine or company news. regards

[Thunder]

It's the McLaren-Honda Team Thread. It is there to discuss everything regarding McLaren, Honda and all the things in between. So it really IS the right Thread for that. Some Renault talk is only natural after the Announcement to switch for 2018. If there is not enough positive Honda Talk over there, start it.

[HPD]

Prior to heading to the Mexican Grand Prix, Honda was ready to become "an equivalent, a tough fight" (Nakamura Satoshi Chief Engineer).

In order to compensate for the low pressure, every power unit / manufacturer took more measures to increase the workload of the turbo than usual in order to take in more air than usual.

However, in that case, we had to raise the speed of the turbo and MGU - H more than usual, and the turbo and the MGU - H were exposed to severe situation than usual Grand Prix.
Such a reason is conceivable as the background that the Renault momentum followed trouble.

"Last year I had designed a turbo and compressor in anticipation of that, but this year the design of the blades (feathers) of the turbo and the compressor changed, so if you try to take in 20% more air than usual, We had to use it in a high revolution area, because it was at a level that can not be guaranteed with respect to the confidence side, we were giving up if we had to restrict it and use it, "Nakamura Chief Engineer Was speaking.

It worked here was a staff of the research institute "HRD Sakura" located in Sakura City, Tochigi Prefecture.

"If you simply drop the turbo's rotation and use it, the performance of the engine will also be reduced, so how can I use the engine without diminishing the performance of the engine even if it drops the speed of the turbo until just before the Mexican GP opens It simulated me."

Thanks to HRD Sakura's efforts, Honda PU at Mexico GP was able to run without receiving high handicapped handicaps than what was supposed before coming to Mexico GP.

According to Nakamura Engineer, "The performance drop due to highlands has stayed at only about 1/3, rather than it assumed. It was a pleasant surprise that I thought that it would not take chopsticks or sticks. "

It was not just a coincidence that Fernando Alonso recorded the time within the top ten from the first day.

This experience will be put to use even in races after the Mexican Grand Prix. That's because Honda has succeeded in improving performance while maintaining reliability by changing the setting on the software side of usage, without making any hardware changes.
In other words, it has been confirmed that there is still a growth margin by devising how to use Honda's PU.

Two remaining races. The engine to be introduced is the same specification 3.8 as the American GP but its performance is not exactly the same as two weeks ago. What kind of driving will you show off? I want to look forward to it.

https://news.biglobe.ne.jp/sports/1108/ ... 18454.html

[bigblue]

Really interesting that some kind of software / mapping / usage strategy has made a real difference. Wonder what was done !

[godlameroso]

Maybe operating at a higher speed moved the shaft out of the resonant frequency zone, which allowed them to run more aggressive settings at a more reliable level?

[PlatinumZealot]

Could be the ERS mapping. They normally use ERS energy to spool up the turbo, but I bet that in Mexico they used that energy to "torque fill" using the MGUK where the boost was lacking.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Maybe operating at a higher speed moved the shaft out of the resonant frequency zone, which allowed them to run more aggressive settings at a more reliable level?

I think the whole point as reported by media was that they did not have to raise the turbo speed unlike all other teams.

[Wazari]

Could be the ERS mapping. They normally use ERS energy to spool up the turbo, but I bet that in Mexico they used that energy to "torque fill" using the MGUK where the boost was lacking.

You are correct. Also fine tuning of fuel mixture and other mapping.