2021 Engine thread

[godlameroso]

You don't need a clutch to shift gears, just good timing.

[NL_Fer]

But wouldn’t throttle lift cause the turbo to stall? How did they trigger the bang bang ALS?

[MrPotatoHead]

With a dog box which was used on the F1 gearboxes you do not need to use the clutch as mentioned, but ideally you would interrupt the power slightly during the shift.

Modern race cars with a manual dog box will use a strain gauge on the gear shift to tell the ecu to reduce power during the shift event.

[bill shoe]

I like the idea of making electrical energy deployment (from battery into the MGU-K) controlled by the driver, with the battery big enough to store multiple laps worth of energy rather than the single lap currently allowed. This allows a following but faster driver to store up energy over two or three laps and then blow by the leading car with the extra energy deployment. The following driver has to "earn" the saved energy by not using it while he keeps up with the leading car.

This is a much more natural way to earn and achieve a pass compared to the current artificial and gimmicky DRS. It also puts much more focus on the hybrid/electric part of the powertrain than the current Rube-Goldberg system, despite the new system being of course simpler and cheaper.

[Jolle]

I like the idea of making electrical energy deployment (from battery into the MGU-K) controlled by the driver, with the battery big enough to store multiple laps worth of energy rather than the single lap currently allowed. This allows a following but faster driver to store up energy over two or three laps and then blow by the leading car with the extra energy deployment. The following driver has to "earn" the saved energy by not using it while he keeps up with the leading car.

This is a much more natural way to earn and achieve a pass compared to the current artificial and gimmicky DRS. It also puts much more focus on the hybrid/electric part of the powertrain than the current Rube-Goldberg system, despite the new system being of course simpler and cheaper.

So.... only one overtake manoeuvre every three laps? The leading car will drive very defensive the rest of the lap(s), to store as much power as possible to counter the attack (just like now, with the OT button).

[JonoNic]

How about having a standardised crankshaft, conrods, and camshafts that are made of exotic material (FIA must ensure that these parts are durable) but they are setup to only give a spiky powerband?

The rest of the PU is up to the engineers to develop. Capacity maybe a 2l 90° v8? I'm not sure if should be turbo or NA. MGU-H/K can either be used for torque fill (to compensate for spiky powerband) or push to pass when the driver needs it.

I think a spiky powerband (if unassisted with electric power) would create more opportunities for overtakes as the cars could bog down on exits. Drivers should manage the deployment of (specified) electrical boost at any point of the lap.

[63l8qrrfy6]

How about having a standardised crankshaft, conrods, and camshafts that are made of exotic material (FIA must ensure that these parts are durable) but they are setup to only give a spiky powerband?

The rest of the PU is up to the engineers to develop. Capacity maybe a 2l 90° v8? I'm not sure if should be turbo or NA. MGU-H/K can either be used for torque fill (to compensate for spiky powerband) or push to pass when the driver needs it.

I think a spiky powerband (if unassisted with electric power) would create more opportunities for overtakes as the cars could bog down on exits. Drivers should manage the deployment of (specified) electrical boost at any point of the lap.

So basically: give them moped engines and ban gearboxes.

[JonoNic]

Well... One that you can put in a Ferrari!

[gruntguru]

I like the idea of making electrical energy deployment (from battery into the MGU-K) controlled by the driver, with the battery big enough to store multiple laps worth of energy rather than the single lap currently allowed. This allows a following but faster driver to store up energy over two or three laps and then blow by the leading car with the extra energy deployment. The following driver has to "earn" the saved energy by not using it while he keeps up with the leading car.

This is a much more natural way to earn and achieve a pass compared to the current artificial and gimmicky DRS. It also puts much more focus on the hybrid/electric part of the powertrain than the current Rube-Goldberg system, despite the new system being of course simpler and cheaper.

Not sure about the detail but generally think the concept is great. You could do away with the computing that controls energy flows and eliminate DRS in one fell swoop.

[NL_Fer]

It sounds exciting, but on track the defending driver will be clever and use the same powersaving as the attacker and use deployment for getting away.

I’d rather see a downforce increasing feature instead of DRS, like suggested in another thread, for a more natural compensation for losses by the wake/turbulence. Keep the engines simpel, stupid and not complex hybrid.

[roon]

Spec components will only shift the spending elsewhere. Is Merc spending appreciably less per year than RB or Ferrari did in their heydays?

Could the MGU-K not only be used to assist with power to the crankshaft, but also to help spool the turbo and remove turbo lag. That is what the MGU-H functionally does. This could mean both the removal of the MGU-H (for costs) and the sound benefits that come with it.

With the proposal in increasing the power of the MGU-K, I don't see why this couldn't be a reality, powering both crank and turbo. Perhaps x amount of power from the K can be used to remove turbo lag through automation and stop drivers from just using KERS every corner exit, thus leaving the drivers to decide when and where to use the KERS to power the engine.

Yes. This is what is called "Torque Fill" and is used already on road cars like the McLaren P1. The MGUK is used to fill in the gap in the torque band before the turbo(s) spool and then tapers off as the turbos come up to speed for a wider power band.

Is it about filling in the torque curve, or filling in between combustion events? It could be that it smooths the power delivery of the ICE that it is attached to. The electric motor is used to fill in the gaps between combustion strokes. Thus a hybrid power unit can deliver constant torque like an electric motor.

In F1, the K is appropriately sized for this; 160hp being more than what a single cylinder can deliver (~140 hp). But is the K still selectively deployed? I don't think they're pulsing the K on and off for an entire lap.

But if they are, the smooth power output might help the longevity of the transmissions that we see. It may even influence chassis design. The 90 deg cylinder bank angle being better for installation into the chassis, but not ideal for a V6 engine. But it doesn't matter--torque fill could make the bank angle irrelevant.

[MrPotatoHead]

Could the MGU-K not only be used to assist with power to the crankshaft, but also to help spool the turbo and remove turbo lag. That is what the MGU-H functionally does. This could mean both the removal of the MGU-H (for costs) and the sound benefits that come with it.

With the proposal in increasing the power of the MGU-K, I don't see why this couldn't be a reality, powering both crank and turbo. Perhaps x amount of power from the K can be used to remove turbo lag through automation and stop drivers from just using KERS every corner exit, thus leaving the drivers to decide when and where to use the KERS to power the engine.

Yes. This is what is called "Torque Fill" and is used already on road cars like the McLaren P1. The MGUK is used to fill in the gap in the torque band before the turbo(s) spool and then tapers off as the turbos come up to speed for a wider power band.

Is it about filling in the torque curve, or filling in between combustion events? It could be that it smooths the power delivery of the ICE that it is attached to. The electric motor is used to fill in the gaps between combustion strokes. Thus a hybrid power unit can deliver constant torque like an electric motor.

In F1, the K is appropriately sized for this; 160hp being more than what a single cylinder can deliver (~140 hp). But is the K still selectively deployed? I don't think they're pulsing the K on and off for an entire lap.

But if they are, the smooth power output might help the longevity of the transmissions that we see. It may even influence chassis design. The 90 deg cylinder bank angle being better for installation into the chassis, but not ideal for a V6 engine. But it doesn't matter--torque fill could make the bank angle irrelevant.

Interesting thought process.
In road cars like the P1 it is purely used for continuous torque fill at the bottom of the power band until the turbos kick in, and then can be used on top of the turbos after that.

In F1 I would imagine that kind of PWM / Torque manipulation would be very difficult to achieve without some side effects like vibration.

[wuzak]

I like the idea of making electrical energy deployment (from battery into the MGU-K) controlled by the driver, with the battery big enough to store multiple laps worth of energy rather than the single lap currently allowed. This allows a following but faster driver to store up energy over two or three laps and then blow by the leading car with the extra energy deployment. The following driver has to "earn" the saved energy by not using it while he keeps up with the leading car.

This is a much more natural way to earn and achieve a pass compared to the current artificial and gimmicky DRS. It also puts much more focus on the hybrid/electric part of the powertrain than the current Rube-Goldberg system, despite the new system being of course simpler and cheaper.

Note that they have 4MJ of storage to use per lap now, and 2Mj can be extracted from the K per lap. So, in theory, the current regs could work the way you describe.

The MGUH gives the remaining 2MJ and some more. In effect you end up with 5 or 6MJ per lap.

In the proposed rules the ES will go up to 6MJ. The MGUK power will also go up. But at some circuits the allowed recovery amount from the MGUK cannot be reached.

It may take 4 to 6 laps for a driver to store the energy required for an attack lap at Silverstone, for example.

And then there is the other issue. With a single turbo there is likely to be some lag, and the MGUK will likely be used to compensate for that. But if you are saving your energy for an attack, you miss out on the anti-lag use. So the result may be that you fall back from your prey, as you have to cope with a few seconds of lag per lap more than he does.

[toraabe]

The lag will still be there.
When Nico Rosberg lost the ERS on his car the MGU H also failed, but he was able to drive solely on his ICE
De described the lag as at least 2 sec. But remember he also had to spin the inacive MGU H..

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=roon]Is it about filling in the torque curve, or filling in between combustion events? It could be that it smooths the power delivery of the ICE that it is attached to. The electric motor is used to fill in the gaps between combustion strokes. Thus a hybrid power unit can deliver constant torque like an electric motor.
In F1, the K is appropriately sized for this; 160hp being more than what a single cylinder can deliver (~140 hp). But is the K still selectively deployed? I don't think they're pulsing the K on and off for an entire lap.
But if they are, the smooth power output might help the longevity of the transmissions that we see. It may even influence chassis design. The 90 deg cylinder bank angle being better for installation into the chassis, but not ideal for a V6 engine. But it doesn't matter--torque fill could make the bank angle irrelevant.[/quote]

roon is asking for K behaviour better than an extra V6 ICE slaved in ideal phase to the ICE ie to better an even-firing V12
doesn't electric torque filling of ICE cyclic torque need a much bigger electrical machine than a 160 hp MGU-K ?
ie a machine whose peak torque matches the in-cycle peak torque of a cylinder
the 'size' of the electrical machine and what drives it being closely related to peak torque

this difficulty is additional to those PHead has just mentioned

super responsive electric machines here are not as 'constant' as roon hopes - these characteristics are mutually exclusive
to produce by in-cycle torque filling a constant torque is particularly demanding
these (synchronous or reluctance) machines are in effect magnetic gears
we already need control miracles to prevent these 'gears' slipping given the ICE rpm/torque excursions of shifting etc

why beat ourselves to death for no benefit ? - given the load path to Earth is a low-pass 1 Hz mechanical filter

the K's dynamic response in-cycle will be much worse than the ICE's mechanically but not worse electromagnetically
ie it could produce torque pulses as rapid as the combustion torque pulses if (as is) there is a dominant velocity-related load
such torque pulses are an abnormal requirement and may be impossible electrically without some shortfall for various reasons