Tesla Roadster

[Phil]

If I compare that to my car then it is more expensive, even if you factor in a belt/clutch change. On the other hand the high fuel prices 1.5Eur/l (7.5 $/gallon) give a lot of room to work with.

As Diogo nailed, that's quite a car you have there if the only thing that costs you money within that 200k are belt and clutch changes. Some cars are more expensive than others to maintain, but still it's interesting to get a ballpark on costs for that specific EV, so thanks for sharing.

[isullivan]

I wonder how big the truck battery will be and how long will it last assuming the truck does 150 000-200 000 km a year, no way it makes economic sense at least in Europe.

[Andres125sx]

and the battery is constantly losing energy internally
when I use my ICE car after 10 days the stored energy loss is maybe 0.00001%
with a battery the stored energy loss over this time is 1%, 3%, even 10%, 30% etc ? (90% for my backup toothbrush or shaver)

Because your toothbrush and shaver are using NiCd or NiMh batteries. Lithium batteries are different, their self-discharging rate is almost negligible

And current Lithium batteries are far from the perfect battery for EVs, but if you judge EVs based on a battery technology wich is even older than Lithium... I perfectly understand your objection

[Andres125sx]

The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?

To get a technologically advanced complex product to market you need early adopters, who will accept an immature technology at a high price. These will help you to get production started, work out the kinks, get the infrastructure in place and drive down costs. That is one way you can gain mass market,

What Tesla absolutely nailed is to identify these early adopters. Whereas most EV’s tried to appeal to the environmentally contious, Tesla appealed to the luxury market, Yuppies, Dinky’s, Banks and insurers trying to boost the appeal of their fleet. They skipped the environmental stuff, and went for luxury, and gadgery. I mean if your concern is for the environment cramming a car full of LCD’s is not exactly the way to go.

They went after the money, and so far it works out. But I absolutely believe the mass market is there. For me personally the technology is getting close to the tipping point. My solar panels are producing enough excess energy as it is, my driving habits allow for EV. A bit lower in price and a bit more range and reliability and they are there.

How much I like my 2l turbo, I hate splashing down 100 euros every time I visit the pump. Simple math really.

Great reply, I think you nailed it

Nowadays EVs are only for early adopters who can live with its current limitations, while cooperating on their development. ICEs were not different at the beginning. Who cared about a complicated machine with tons of problems wich can run out of fuel and stop working when a horse can make the same job even faster and with much better reliability? Early adopters who can and want to pay its excessive price.

Thanks god for the early adopters


What people keep missing is batteries evolve. Today they´re expensive and with several limitations, but the day some of the new batteries under development (LiO, LiS...) hit the market, ICEs will be dead.

What about a battery wich costs just a small fraction of current batteries and with an energy density around 4x current batteries? What if they can be recycled at almost 100% so the manufacturing emissions, cost and mining is drastically reduced? Search about Lithium air batteries, current EVs are only the beta testers wich will help preparing people and develop the necessary infrastructure.


But people keep repeating EVs are just a matter of political nosense and PR...


Meanwhile... this is not Pekin, this is Madrid. Anyone think this is due to CO2? This is one of the reasons I´ve said the CO2 debate is biased and flawed. There are many more substances being thrown to the atmosphere through the exhausts of ICE...

[Tommy Cookers]

the life of a Lithium battery is 1000 full cycles
(that's why they are restricted to 35% of a full cycle and so 35% of full range - so they can have an 8 year warranty)
the life of a NiCad battery is 2000 full cycles
but I wouldn't trust that few cycles/year will make the battery live correspondingly longer than warranted
btw please tell me more about which batteries I have at home - and how you know this better than I do
and what determines battery life if it is not the ability to absorb and store the electrical energy for which we pay

btw
our cities air is cleaner than ever before because of the extra costs we have been paying for 30 or 40 years
though 75% of visible pollution you show comes (in London) from 'zero carbon' wood burning heating subsidised by everyone

[Edax]

If I compare that to my car then it is more expensive, even if you factor in a belt/clutch change. On the other hand the high fuel prices 1.5Eur/l (7.5 $/gallon) give a lot of room to work with.

As Diogo nailed, that's quite a car you have there if the only thing that costs you money within that 200k are belt and clutch changes. Some cars are more expensive than others to maintain, but still it's interesting to get a ballpark on costs for that specific EV, so thanks for sharing.

Well it is a german car

But I only quoted the big ticket items. Of course you spend a lot more on spak plugs, a lambda sensor, oil, etc. But I suspect an EV is not maintenance free either.

Meanwhile I did some digging. For the tesla cost of a battery was quoted as $45k a few years ago. However most recent numbers are $20k, that includes the return value of an old battery. But it is now possible to pre book a replacement battery for $12k for when your current one runs out.

Tesla themselves now qoute a production cost of <$7k for the model3 battery.
https://electrek.co/2017/02/18/tesla-ba ... y-model-3/

I guess that is mainly the economics of scale at work. I suspect is also why they are so agressive at their product portfolio. In order to drive the costs down for the batteries and get to a competitive price point, they need to get as many vehicles on the road as they can. The gain of making more ( universal) batteries outweighs the cost of a diversified product portfolio.

[henry]

Some additional data points from http://bmwi3.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/her ... ently.html

BMW i3 upgrade 22 kWh to 33 kWh $8000

Nissan Leaf 24 kWh replacement $5499

[Andres125sx]

the life of a Lithium battery is 1000 full cycles
(that's why they are restricted to 35% of a full cycle and so 35% of full range - so they can have an 8 year warranty)
the life of a NiCad battery is 2000 full cycles

Maybe you missed this

And current Lithium batteries are far from the perfect battery for EVs

btw please tell me more about which batteries I have at home - and how you know this better than I do

I know the same way you don´t need to analyse that brown fog to know where is that coming from. If you talk about a discharging rate of 90%, that obviously is NOT a lithium battery, since lithium batteries does not self discharge that much, never. If you left a lithium battery charged it will keep the energy... and get ruined. That is the reason I said lithium is far from the perfect battery, they can´t be storaged at full charge or fully discharged wich IMHO is by far the most problematic aspect of Lipos/LiIon, but it will never suffer a 90% discharging rate, it is this simple

I´m drone operator, and I´m working with Lithium batteries for more than 15 years, basically since they exists

our cities air is cleaner than ever before because of the extra costs we have been paying for 30 or 40 years
though 75% of visible pollution you show comes (in London) from 'zero carbon' wood burning heating subsidised by everyone

I know heating is the main problem, but that´s being solved too. At least here in Madrid there´s a campaign to subsidise the switch from old oil-fire boilers (is that the name?). There´s no reason to try to solve the remaining pollution resons

[bill shoe]

the life of a Lithium battery is 1000 full cycles
(that's why they are restricted to 35% of a full cycle and so 35% of full range - so they can have an 8 year warranty)
the life of a NiCad battery is 2000 full cycles

Question for TC or anyone else-- if Lithium has full-cycle battery life of roughly 1000 cycles, is there a general rule of thumb for battery life when discharge limited to 35%? A happy, ideal linear answer would be that it roughly triples to 3000 cycles. But reality is probably not that good.

8 year warranty is maybe 200-250 cycles per year so 1600-2000 cycles? Yes, being bit lazy and asking for answer instead of looking into it myself.

[rscsr]

...
Question for TC or anyone else-- if Lithium has full-cycle battery life of roughly 1000 cycles, is there a general rule of thumb for battery life when discharge limited to 35%? A happy, ideal linear answer would be that it roughly triples to 3000 cycles. But reality is probably not that good.
...

or might even be better.

[Tommy Cookers]

my understanding via the net is that rule of thumb is universal for EVs and hybrids (all are presumably on Lithium)
ie that's how the user has the warranty
this seems all for the 6 day/week driver

I think Tesla has some concept of occasional use of charge/discharge beyond '35%' range

cheapskates could replace an original-size battery used in '35%' range with a cheap smaller battery used in the 100% range ?
(I drive 1 day/week)
and will batteries be numbered like engines to deter theft by covert swapping ?

this r.o.t presumably doesn't apply easily to NiCads as iirc they lose capacity unless fully discharged

[roon]

Depending on tire size, wheel speed at 250mph will be around 3000 RPM, +/- a few hundred. If a single speed reduction gear is used with a ratio similar to that of the Model S (9.73:1) the motor will be spinning approximately 30k RPM. The Model S motor is rated at 18k RPM. So, will a modified ratio be used? Multiple ratios? Or a motor design capable of higher angular velocity?