Mclaren Vs Toro Rosso 2018 - time capsule

[McHonda]

McLaren will finish higher than STR and it won't be close. Better everything for 2018.

Red Bull will finish ahead of McLaren but it will be reasonably close from Spain onwards with Alonso occasionally beating one or both. I expect them to have a better chassis than McLaren and they've arguably got the strongest driver line up on the grid. McLaren have chosen the conservative cooling package and Red Bull the aggressive one as I understand it so it will be interesting to see how that effects reliability amongst other things.

I don't understand how that means we'll finally be able to establish how the Honda measures up to Renault though? It's just switching engines between STR and McLaren so it's the same difficulty for those that can't already see how they measure up this year unless I'm missing something obvious?

[bblundell72]

Mclaren will get nowhere near Red Bull unless Renault decides to give Red Bull hand grenades and then blame them for poor installation procedures. I will predict that if the Renault is unreliable in testing and the Honda is working well in the torro rosso that Red Bull will kick Renault to the kerb before the second pre season test and will race Honda engines in 2018.

I would be highly surprised if this were to happen. Torro Rosso has already said the Honda power unit is significantly different than the Renault so you can't just switch one out for the other. The 2018 Red Bull has already been designed to run the Renault power unit. I can't see them designing to separate cars, one for a Honda and one for a Renault and having the time to actually manufacture them both over the winter. Also the expense involved to build a car that would then just be a throw away would be uneconomical.

[carisi2k]

Brawn did it with the mercedes late in the game in 09 and won a world title. So precedent has been set and Red Bull have all of the Honda specifications to be able to do so if necessary. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an rb-14h specification just as a backup in case Renault stuffs them over in the pre season.

I am really looking forward to pre season testing. I wish it was 16 days long like it used to be. This cost saving thing is ridiculous.

[carisi2k]

Anyway back to mac vs toro rosso debate. I will also expand this to include Red Bull. I think too many of you are focusing on what Honda had in 2017 and not on what they will have in 2018. I think STR and Honda will surprise many on here with how good the combination will be even as a test bench year. STR and Honda have been testing on the RBT testbed since the announcement in Singapore and this will be providing Honda and RB with a vast amount of information to make educated decisions on progress for 2018. With Renault still having kers issues on the dyno it would be doubtful that a 2018 Renault engine has been anywhere other then the viry engine facility or enstone. Will any customer Renault team get the mileage they need in pre season testing to be competitive in 2018.

[bjpower]

its a difficult one. I think it will be a season of 2 half's.
TR should have an easier time accommodating a smaller engine into their 2018 design than MCL trying to fit a bigger engine in the back of where a honda was planned to be.
so for the first half of the season I think TR will finish better (not necessarily score points)
for the second half I expect MCL to win the development race and with better drivers start beating TR and scoring points regularly.

[diffuser]

Mclaren will get nowhere near Red Bull unless Renault decides to give Red Bull hand grenades and then blame them for poor installation procedures. I will predict that if the Renault is unreliable in testing and the Honda is working well in the torro rosso that Red Bull will kick Renault to the kerb before the second pre season test and will race Honda engines in 2018.

Wow!!!!! Off topic and uninformed but yet still comments...

RBR switching to a Honda PU for the 2nd test after testing with Renault in the 1st is impossible. They'd have to redesign the whole car.

[Singabule]

its a difficult one. I think it will be a season of 2 half's.
TR should have an easier time accommodating a smaller engine into their 2018 design than MCL trying to fit a bigger engine in the back of where a honda was planned to be.
so for the first half of the season I think TR will finish better (not necessarily score points)
for the second half I expect MCL to win the development race and with better drivers start beating TR and scoring points regularly.

Size should not be problem, but plumbing especially to intercooler and the weight balance is the difficult part. I think STR would not score point in the first 3 races

[diffuser]

Are you throwing a life preserver before the boat sinks?
If Toro Rosso Honda in 2018 is better than Mclaren Renault, it is because Toro Rosso is better than Mclaren, not as you say "Toro Rosso because (mclaren is in transition year)"
Are you telling me that Mclaren can lose because they are in "transition year"?
NO friend, if Mclaren loses against Toro Rosso, it's because they're bad.

I agree.
They are both in transition years. Although McLaren has said that they've already caught up with the extra work from the PU integration.
I suspect they'll both still be conservative on the packaging. Probably tighten it up for the 1st race then again for Spain.

[diffuser]

Brawn did it with the mercedes late in the game in 09 and won a world title. So precedent has been set and Red Bull have all of the Honda specifications to be able to do so if necessary. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an rb-14h specification just as a backup in case Renault stuffs them over in the pre season.

I am really looking forward to pre season testing. I wish it was 16 days long like it used to be. This cost saving thing is ridiculous.

• Honda pulled out in EARLY December and I bet Brawn had a heads up. Not in February as you want RBR to do.

• Renault is not pulling out, RBR has a contract with Renault and would still have to pay them.

• I doubt Honda could even get the PUs ready in time on such short notice

[McHonda]

Anyway back to mac vs toro rosso debate. I will also expand this to include Red Bull. I think too many of you are focusing on what Honda had in 2017 and not on what they will have in 2018. I think STR and Honda will surprise many on here with how good the combination will be even as a test bench year. STR and Honda have been testing on the RBT testbed since the announcement in Singapore and this will be providing Honda and RB with a vast amount of information to make educated decisions on progress for 2018. With Renault still having kers issues on the dyno it would be doubtful that a 2018 Renault engine has been anywhere other then the viry engine facility or enstone. Will any customer Renault team get the mileage they need in pre season testing to be competitive in 2018.

2018 development parts in the ICE have already raced for Renault this year and helped win 2 races, so parts of the 2018 engine have certainly left the dyno.

Reliability is easier to find than performance and increases in performance come with question marks about reliability for everyone bar Mercedes. Odds are the same will happen with Honda. Renault customers would have the same worry about pre-season running as any customer outside Mercedes (and to a lesser extent Ferrari customers) would have so it's not a special problem for Renault customers alone.

[carisi2k]

Anyway back to mac vs toro rosso debate. I will also expand this to include Red Bull. I think too many of you are focusing on what Honda had in 2017 and not on what they will have in 2018. I think STR and Honda will surprise many on here with how good the combination will be even as a test bench year. STR and Honda have been testing on the RBT testbed since the announcement in Singapore and this will be providing Honda and RB with a vast amount of information to make educated decisions on progress for 2018. With Renault still having kers issues on the dyno it would be doubtful that a 2018 Renault engine has been anywhere other then the viry engine facility or enstone. Will any customer Renault team get the mileage they need in pre season testing to be competitive in 2018.

2018 development parts in the ICE have already raced for Renault this year and helped win 2 races, so parts of the 2018 engine have certainly left the dyno.

Reliability is easier to find than performance and increases in performance come with question marks about reliability for everyone bar Mercedes. Odds are the same will happen with Honda. Renault customers would have the same worry about pre-season running as any customer outside Mercedes (and to a lesser extent Ferrari customers) would have so it's not a special problem for Renault customers alone.

There was no development parts for the Renault PU in 2017 for Red Bull. The engine that Max won with at sepang and mexico is the same spec as the one that kept going bang all year for him, Daniel and the other Renault runners. Red Bull never got any development parts so any 2018 developments did not in fact win 2 races in 2017.

Certainly if they were fitted to Daniels car late in the season then those 2018 parts hand grenaded in 3 of the last 4 races. Renault in fact barely had any parts left and this forced Toro Rosso to run at such an engine state that even the saubers were faster then them. What happened was that Renault thought that they had overcome their reliability issues at Mexico and incorrectly told Red Bull and Toro rosso they could turn the engines up.

[carisi2k]

Brawn did it with the mercedes late in the game in 09 and won a world title. So precedent has been set and Red Bull have all of the Honda specifications to be able to do so if necessary. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an rb-14h specification just as a backup in case Renault stuffs them over in the pre season.

I am really looking forward to pre season testing. I wish it was 16 days long like it used to be. This cost saving thing is ridiculous.

• Honda pulled out in EARLY December and I bet Brawn had a heads up. Not in February as you want RBR to do.

• Renault is not pulling out, RBR has a contract with Renault and would still have to pay them.

• I doubt Honda could even get the PUs ready in time on such short notice

Your assuming incorrectly that Red bull would be starting fresh from February instead of planning for such a move since the September TR announcement. Red Bull has had access to 2018 Honda and Renault engine dimensions since September. It would bee easy enough to overlay both engines into the RB14 chassis to see how things fit in a computer and on a test bench. RBT would most likely have put a spec 4 engine in a spare rb13 chassis as well as an STR12 chassis just to see what would be needed to move from the Renault to the Honda.

[McHonda]

Anyway back to mac vs toro rosso debate. I will also expand this to include Red Bull. I think too many of you are focusing on what Honda had in 2017 and not on what they will have in 2018. I think STR and Honda will surprise many on here with how good the combination will be even as a test bench year. STR and Honda have been testing on the RBT testbed since the announcement in Singapore and this will be providing Honda and RB with a vast amount of information to make educated decisions on progress for 2018. With Renault still having kers issues on the dyno it would be doubtful that a 2018 Renault engine has been anywhere other then the viry engine facility or enstone. Will any customer Renault team get the mileage they need in pre season testing to be competitive in 2018.

2018 development parts in the ICE have already raced for Renault this year and helped win 2 races, so parts of the 2018 engine have certainly left the dyno.

Reliability is easier to find than performance and increases in performance come with question marks about reliability for everyone bar Mercedes. Odds are the same will happen with Honda. Renault customers would have the same worry about pre-season running as any customer outside Mercedes (and to a lesser extent Ferrari customers) would have so it's not a special problem for Renault customers alone.

There was no development parts for the Renault PU in 2017 for Red Bull. The engine that Max won with at sepang and mexico is the same spec as the one that kept going bang all year for him, Daniel and the other Renault runners. Red Bull never got any development parts so any 2018 developments did not in fact win 2 races in 2017.

Certainly if they were fitted to Daniels car late in the season then those 2018 parts hand grenaded in 3 of the last 4 races. Renault in fact barely had any parts left and this forced Toro Rosso to run at such an engine state that even the saubers were faster then them. What happened was that Renault thought that they had overcome their reliability issues at Mexico and incorrectly told Red Bull and Toro rosso they could turn the engines up.

Sorry, it was only 1 win as he got the upgrade in USA which was after Malaysia.

But I can assure you Max had developmental parts when he won. Renault brought 3 2018 development ICE's, 1 went to Max, 1 went to Hulk and 1 went to Hartley.

Max had his in Mexico and he won.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13256 ... en-upgrade

[baybars]

Anyway back to mac vs toro rosso debate. I will also expand this to include Red Bull. I think too many of you are focusing on what Honda had in 2017 and not on what they will have in 2018. I think STR and Honda will surprise many on here with how good the combination will be even as a test bench year. STR and Honda have been testing on the RBT testbed since the announcement in Singapore and this will be providing Honda and RB with a vast amount of information to make educated decisions on progress for 2018. With Renault still having kers issues on the dyno it would be doubtful that a 2018 Renault engine has been anywhere other then the viry engine facility or enstone. Will any customer Renault team get the mileage they need in pre season testing to be competitive in 2018.

2018 development parts in the ICE have already raced for Renault this year and helped win 2 races, so parts of the 2018 engine have certainly left the dyno.

Reliability is easier to find than performance and increases in performance come with question marks about reliability for everyone bar Mercedes. Odds are the same will happen with Honda. Renault customers would have the same worry about pre-season running as any customer outside Mercedes (and to a lesser extent Ferrari customers) would have so it's not a special problem for Renault customers alone.

There was no development parts for the Renault PU in 2017 for Red Bull. The engine that Max won with at sepang and mexico is the same spec as the one that kept going bang all year for him, Daniel and the other Renault runners. Red Bull never got any development parts so any 2018 developments did not in fact win 2 races in 2017.

Certainly if they were fitted to Daniels car late in the season then those 2018 parts hand grenaded in 3 of the last 4 races. Renault in fact barely had any parts left and this forced Toro Rosso to run at such an engine state that even the saubers were faster then them. What happened was that Renault thought that they had overcome their reliability issues at Mexico and incorrectly told Red Bull and Toro rosso they could turn the engines up.

Renault have already used 2018 PU part from 2017 Austin GP
Verstappen and Hulkenberg had have new spec engine

https://www.pitpass.com/60476/Ricciardo ... ne-upgrade
https://www.pitpass.com/60511/Renaults-Mexico-preview

How much are you looking to 2018?
RT: Back at Viry, of course, we are well into our 2018 programme as so much work is done ahead of the Power Unit getting to the track. On track too, we have brought certain elements which are relevant to our 2018 PU as we look to take another step forward. We have a busy four months before we see the 2018 cars unveiled, as we do every year.

[diffuser]

Brawn did it with the mercedes late in the game in 09 and won a world title. So precedent has been set and Red Bull have all of the Honda specifications to be able to do so if necessary. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an rb-14h specification just as a backup in case Renault stuffs them over in the pre season.

I am really looking forward to pre season testing. I wish it was 16 days long like it used to be. This cost saving thing is ridiculous.

• Honda pulled out in EARLY December and I bet Brawn had a heads up. Not in February as you want RBR to do.

• Renault is not pulling out, RBR has a contract with Renault and would still have to pay them.

• I doubt Honda could even get the PUs ready in time on such short notice

Your assuming incorrectly that Red bull would be starting fresh from February instead of planning for such a move since the September TR announcement. Red Bull has had access to 2018 Honda and Renault engine dimensions since September. It would bee easy enough to overlay both engines into the RB14 chassis to see how things fit in a computer and on a test bench. RBT would most likely have put a spec 4 engine in a spare rb13 chassis as well as an STR12 chassis just to see what would be needed to move from the Renault to the Honda.

Did you read what James Key and Hasegawa said about how busy they're gonna be this winter just to get the Honda PU to fit the STR? https://www.f1technical.net/news/21470