F1 2009 cornering speeds

[Scotracer]

I don't need to brief anyone on the ins and outs of next years regulations but I have a number of questions. I am a newly graduated Automotive/Mechanical engineer looking to start a career in the motorsport industry so input is much appreciated

With the reliance on downforce being less compared to mechanical grip for next year, how will cornering speeds be affected? I've read a recent (and by looking at testing times) estimate of a little less than 1.0 seconds being lost in overall lap time next year but I wanted to know where this will go. The cars should produce less drag (depending how the FIA have mandated the regulations) so theoretically, with the same power output (more if you take KERS into consideration) the straight line performance of the cars will be increased so obviously the time has to be lost somewhere. Are we talking a significant cornering deficit? The cars will be wider with wider wheels so weight transfer will be greater therefore mechanical grip should be able to cope with high lateral loads...but how much compared to current cars? That is what most thrills me about the cars; not the longitudinal acceleration (which is prodigious) but their centripetal acceleration rates.

(maybe off-topic for the section but I may as well ask whilst I'm here) Will the KERS offer a permanent output increase or only when the "push-to-pass" button is depressed? Just had to ask

[Ogami musashi]

It will depend on tracks, basically as it stands now, the cars will be faster than the 2008 on tracks with not more than 4g's. The loss will be in the high G's sections.

But the problem is that the cars tested at barcelona are not of the good dimensions especially the rear wing.
She'll be narrower next year which means that even with less downforce to produce she'll be at high angle of attack so she'll drag a bit more that the rear wing tested at barcelona.

Now, the plans are officially 5 seconds/lap slower F1 cars. But as you seen in fact the cars tested at barcelona were 1 second faster than 2008 ones.

There is the possibility technically that slicks tyres combined with new levels of downforce will produce the same lap times or even a bit better.

But it WAY too early to say that since the tyre tested are still experimental, especially they exhibited the well known warming problem but also long run degradations, so nothing tells us the tyres will stay with that level of grip (which is according to everybody huge).

In addition cars will be different in dimensions and at least the first year the KERS will have an impact so we'll have to wait to see the cornering force.

That said, current F1 tyre produce about 1,5-1,7G max acceleration alone, the rest is given by downforce times the tyre's grip (which is equal to the max acceleration they can get so here 1,5-1,7G).
The current slicks range about 2,5G. That's huge and the thing is that 2,5 figure also multiplies the downforce so in the end, the total grip is a bit higher than the current tyres and downforce levels.

But, it varies with speed, as the faster you go, the more downforce is responsible of total grip.

Now in barcelona you have 3,8G's turns, and the average speed is more than 200km/h which is the average speed of many F1 tracks so in the end it is possible the cars will be a bit faster.

As suggested by coulthard, some low speed track like monaco run at risk to have even greater increase in speed since the grip of tyre in more consistent than downforce which is speed dependent.

[Scotracer]

Yes, I was thinking more at the high-speed circuits like Silverstone and Istanbul. I had thought about what Coulthard was refering to before he stated it and whilst speeds will be increased, wouldn't it be "safer" since it's pure mechanical grip and not aerodynamic (therefore speed dependant)? It would be more consistent performance from the tyres, rather than exponentially increasing grip. More low speed grip must be a good thing, right?

Also, I was thinking about the width of the cars. How would this affect things on the tighter tracks (such as Monaco) where over-taking is restricted anyway? I know the cars used to be 2000mm wide but I can't really remember that far back!

The grooved tyres are well known to be unforgiving when any excessive lateral load is applied (they don't have progressive sliding characteristics) so the cars are often really twitchy and once they let go, they let go. Will this still be a factor on slicks or will some element of slippage be possible and more importantly, controllable? It would be nice to see the cars wrestling when they reach the limit of adhesion...not just spearing off into the gravel, in a huff saying they've had enough. Another element of the grooved tyres is the graining...will this be much of a factor on the slicks or is it just compound dependant and not config dependant?

Thanks for your input, Ogami...I've been reading your posts for a long time!

[NaZzO]

While this is purely based on my amateurish (at best ) analysis, the way I see it for 2009 regs, cornering speeds are going to be definitely higher than current speeds. while i agree with what ogami argued about, i believe he missed to mention that the teams used the same settings for this year's grooved tires and got even better grip. I'm sure all the teams are going to develop better systems to extract more grip from the slicks and of course they are going to take into consideration maintaining the consistency over the entire race period into consideration.
In other words, I believe that Slicks combined with enhanced mechanical grip is sure to at least maintain the current cornering speeds if not even exceed them.

Pls feel free to put holes in my argument, what i aim at is understanding, not being right.

[WhiteBlue]

The objective of the overtaking working group was a 50% reduction of down force. that should have significant impact primarily in high speed corners. In the last ten years we have seen that Eau Rouge can be taken flat out and the same is true for some fast sweeps at Silverstone. I can remember how Jacques Vileneuve crashed his BAR twice in the course of one weekend because he refused to lift. It shows that the cars of the early 90ties had a lot less downforce. you can see that in this picture

the aerodynamic devices are very simple.

With the 2009 changes we should get back to lower cornering speeds in fast corners and slightly faster speeds in slower corners. at least that should happen if things are as desired. the slower corners aren't as critical as the high g corners in terms of creating problems for the circuits. the aero development of the last years has forced many circuits to improve their safety measures at considerable expanse and has moved the spectators farer and farer away from the action. so all together I think it is a good thing that cars will go slower there.

[Ogami musashi]

Yes, I was thinking more at the high-speed circuits like Silverstone and Istanbul.

We will have to wait. All is a question of how much the Tyre's grip has increased vs the decrease of downforce. As you know this is not a linear relation.
It is something: (NewCf/OldCf)=(Weight08+Downforce08)/(Weight09+Downforce09)

Obviously the more the downforce in 08 the more the tyre's grip has to increase for making up the loss in 09 (since 50% of a greater amount means a greater loss).

But as i said, it is still possible to have such a tyre grip, and maybe since downforce is less in 09, tyre load sensitivity will be far better so tyre's grip should remain more consistent with speed and load.

I had thought about what Coulthard was refering to before he stated it and whilst speeds will be increased, wouldn't it be "safer" since it's pure mechanical grip and not aerodynamic (therefore speed dependant)? It would be more consistent performance from the tyres, rather than exponentially increasing grip. More low speed grip must be a good thing, right?

Yes that is good i think because aerodynamics are great but right now a bit too sensible on F1 cars so you loose so much grip easily.
but let's add that i think what is good is good balance between both. And i think there should be a sensitivity anyway so that cars are not "too predictable".

Also, I was thinking about the width of the cars. How would this affect things on the tighter tracks (such as Monaco) where over-taking is restricted anyway? I know the cars used to be 2000mm wide but I can't really remember that far back!

Well, originally and i confess, that was me who said on forums the cars were to be wider, this is because in the current regulations it is stated and it was planned, but, since some times, i see many interviews about 09 and nobody talks about it.
Patrick head said about the front wing (180cm wide) that "it almost comes to the outer edges of the tyres" so i ask myself if they will or not go to 2meters wide cars??

That said it is still possible, i'll try to ask for precisions.

If it is the case, then it is not known if the bodywork will be wider and if the suspensions will. Because it the second case, the weight/load transferts will be less so better grip again.

The grooved tyres are well known to be unforgiving when any excessive lateral load is applied (they don't have progressive sliding characteristics) so the cars are often really twitchy and once they let go, they let go. Will this still be a factor on slicks or will some element of slippage be possible and more importantly, controllable? It would be nice to see the cars wrestling when they reach the limit of adhesion...not just spearing off into the gravel, in a huff saying they've had enough.

Basically the structure of slicks is more flexible so yes it is both more predictable and a bit more forgiving.
Did you drive go karts? some of them have really soft slick tyres and when you overshoot the limits the karts loose grip smoothly so you slow down but progressively.

Another element of the grooved tyres is the graining...will this be much of a factor on the slicks or is it just compound dependant and not config dependant?

Wow this hard to say, Graining is mainly a temperature dependent effect but in principle slicks are far less prone to graining.

Thanks for your input, Ogami...I've been reading your posts for a long time!

my pleasure

[Ogami musashi]

While this is purely based on my amateurish (at best ) analysis, the way I see it for 2009 regs, cornering speeds are going to be definitely higher than current speeds. while i agree with what ogami argued about, i believe he missed to mention that the teams used the same settings for this year's grooved tires and got even better grip. I'm sure all the teams are going to develop better systems to extract more grip from the slicks and of course they are going to take into consideration maintaining the consistency over the entire race period into consideration.
In other words, I believe that Slicks combined with enhanced mechanical grip is sure to at least maintain the current cornering speeds if not even exceed them.

Pls feel free to put holes in my argument, what i aim at is understanding, not being right.

Your reasoning is good but you take half the question because yes they will design the cars around the new regulations, but also some of the regulations tested at barcelona were not possible to test and if you have watched it closely you saw for example the rear wing:

Mclaren tested a straight rear wing, while ferrari did imho a better test of 09 regulation by letting their rear wing at the planned angle of attack and removing bargeboards, tightening their floors etc.. which is a better representative of you 'll get.

The objective of the overtaking working group was a 50% reduction of down force. that should have significant impact primarily in high speed corners. In the last ten years we have seen that Eau Rouge can be taken flat out and the same is true for some fast sweeps at Silverstone. I can remember how Jacques Vileneuve crashed his BAR twice in the course of one weekend because he refused to lift. It shows that the cars of the early 90ties had a lot less downforce. you can see that in this picture

the aerodynamic devices are very simple.

With the 2009 changes we should get back to lower cornering speeds in fast corners and slightly faster speeds in slower corners. at least that should happen if things are as desired. the slower corners aren't as critical as the high g corners in terms of creating problems for the circuits. the aero development of the last years has forced many circuits to improve their safety measures at considerable expanse and has moved the spectators farer and farer away from the action. so all together I think it is a good thing that cars will go slower there.

Grip is grip, i mean, the real question is in the Cf*(weight+downforce) equation what will be, at a given time, the Cf and the downforce.

Eau rouge is not quite a good example because it is always said "flat out", but "flat out" means you don't slow down, it just doesn't says the speed you'll get, for instance since 2006 eau rouge is taken slower than in 2004/2005.
This is because eau rouge has a vertical compression rate of 4g's so basically every car (GT's take eau rouge flat out too)is able to take it flat out, and the speed is more or less drag determined.

That's why, since V8's eau rouge is taken slower.

I don't know about 90's car in detail, they had less downforce for sure (not so far however) but they also had great tires and they lapped even fast tracks about 2 seconds slower than now (you have to take qualifying times because until 94 refueling was banned).

so indeed that's a matter of balance.

For instance for 2009, if the tyre's reach indeed 2,5..you're more than halfway the total grip.

[Scotracer]

We will have to wait. All is a question of how much the Tyre's grip has increased vs the decrease of downforce. As you know this is not a linear relation.
It is something: (NewCf/OldCf)=(Weight08+Downforce08)/(Weight09+Downforce09)

Obviously the more the downforce in 08 the more the tyre's grip has to increase for making up the loss in 09 (since 50% of a greater amount means a greater loss).

The teams were testing tyres at the current width regulations. Are the tyres for next year still being increased or will they just remain as they are now, since the grip is sufficient? I haven't really been able to find any concise data/discussions. Because if they are increased even further the grip will be incredible.

Is the 50% the hard-and-fast rule or was it just some estimate? Because, it seems the rules, even though subject to change haven't stated that. They were supposed to be 50% of 2006 levels. How much more efficient are the aero parts this year? Taking Silverstone for example, the fastest lap in 2006 was a 1:21.xxx where as in 2007 (with harder tyres) the lap time was almost a second faster. So, theoretically the grip could be A LOT more than 50% than current levels?

Yes that is good i think because aerodynamics are great but right now a bit too sensible on F1 cars so you loose so much grip easily.
but let's add that i think what is good is good balance between both. And i think there should be a sensitivity anyway so that cars are not "too predictable".

Yes. I agree that the cars shouldn't become anymore driver-friendly...just allow better overtaking.

[

Well, originally and i confess, that was me who said on forums the cars were to be wider, this is because in the current regulations it is stated and it was planned, but, since some times, i see many interviews about 09 and nobody talks about it.
Patrick head said about the front wing (180cm wide) that "it almost comes to the outer edges of the tyres" so i ask myself if they will or not go to 2meters wide cars??

That said it is still possible, i'll try to ask for precisions.

If it is the case, then it is not known if the bodywork will be wider and if the suspensions will. Because it the second case, the weight/load transferts will be less so better grip again.

Yeah, with the lack of empirical statements it's hard to tell exactly what is happening. If they were going to 2000mm track next year, surely it would negate most of the testing that is being done right now? This would have a massive impact on teh performance.

Basically the structure of slicks is more flexible so yes it is both more predictable and a bit more forgiving.
Did you drive go karts? some of them have really soft slick tyres and when you overshoot the limits the karts loose grip smoothly so you slow down but progressively.

Yes, I have raced karts in the past (at a semi-amatuer level) and going over the limit of adhesion was no more than an annoyance in the way it halted forward acceleration. This would be very impressive to watch from the on-board camera of an F1 car if the characteristics are similar!

Wow this hard to say, Graining is mainly a temperature dependent effect but in principle slicks are far less prone to graining.

Do the grooved tyres over-heat easier than slicks, as they have a similar construction to intermediate/wet tyres? If so, that is a major design flaw that really should have been better thought out by the FIA (they should have reduced the width of teh tyres, not add grooves).

Thanks again!

[Scotracer]

Ok, after a very quick attempt on Photoshop, I've managed to "create" what the 2009 cars may look like. Obviously minus the slick tyres...



Excuse the crudeness but it was a rush job. Yes, I based it on the Ferrari 248, mainly because it has few winglets and flipups

[Ogami musashi]

The teams were testing tyres at the current width regulations. Are the tyres for next year still being increased or will they just remain as they are now, since the grip is sufficient? I haven't really been able to find any concise data/discussions. Because if they are increased even further the grip will be incredible.

As it stands now, i think they'll be increased both in width and diameter and especially the front tyres will be significantly smaller than the rears in spite of now were you can fit both identical tyres in diameter.

Is the 50% the hard-and-fast rule or was it just some estimate? Because, it seems the rules, even though subject to change haven't stated that. They were supposed to be 50% of 2006 levels. How much more efficient are the aero parts this year? Taking Silverstone for example, the fastest lap in 2006 was a 1:21.xxx where as in 2007 (with harder tyres) the lap time was almost a second faster. So, theoretically the grip could be A LOT more than 50% than current levels?

No of course that's an aim, there's no means to measure it efficiently for all conditions.
The goals of the OWG are half the 2006 levels yes, and the 2008 levels are about 10to 20% higher.
The goal my aiming at half the 06 levels is that it takes into account that all team will have greater downforce than this, so in the end will end up 50% of nowadays levels.

Now the lap times are a bit tricky as most of the lap times of 06 were actually faster than 07 as far as pole is concerned and in race fastest lap were often done on the closing laps so were a bit non reliable.
In 06 the downforce was lower but the tyres were far better than now.
The Friction coefficient of those tyres went about 2 for a lot of the speed and load range of the cars, which explained why even with 25% less downforce than in 2005 they were faster at some track and only marginally slower at others.

Yes, I have raced karts in the past (at a semi-amatuer level) and going over the limit of adhesion was no more than an annoyance in the way it halted forward acceleration. This would be very impressive to watch from the on-board camera of an F1 car if the characteristics are similar!

According to liuzzi, that's the feeling it gives to drive on 09 slick tyres.

Do the grooved tyres over-heat easier than slicks, as they have a similar construction to intermediate/wet tyres? If so, that is a major design flaw that really should have been better thought out by the FIA (they should have reduced the width of teh tyres, not add grooves).

Thanks again!

The graining is in fact, in most part, a cold temperature effect. During the lateral stretch of rubber in the temperature is not good enough the state of the part that is too cold is glass like, so some part just run off the rubber, but the then stick on the parts of the rubber which are up to temperature in this case they act like viscous fluid (a tyre is so complex!).

the matter is refered as "cold graining", which suggest there's also the "hot graining" in which i suppose (i didn't study it yet) the temperature is too hot, the chemical bonds vanish away and then parts of the rubber go away.

In any way all of this is due to complexity of temperature/pressure repartition. Obviously a slick tyre being more uniform has less of those problems.


Your photoshop is the first to take into account the dimensions of wings, i see you've read precisely the OWG rules.

I hope it won't look like that though...it's scary!

[Scotracer]

Thanks again, Ogami!

To be honest, I am actually growing to like the look of that mock-up. I don't know, however if I will like it if they do indeed increase the size of the wheels...may look too 80's style



I found this image of the car Shumy tested last week. To me, it looks like he's running 2008 aero regulations apart from some of the appendages (bargeboards missing). It is a very good looking car, too bad the cars won't look anything like it

I know the cars aren't exactly beautiful these last few years but at least they looked stream-lined, aggressive and well proportioned...next year, I think they will look an ungainly, off-balance mess. Oh well, as with the V10s...it's the end of an era

[Ogami musashi]

In fact schumacher was running with the 09 levels of downforce.
The thing is that by removing bargeboards and wingelts they reduced dramatically the downforce of the underfloor and rear wing.

This is to simulate what i was talking about. Next year, since the rear wing will be narrower, it will be ran a the same angle of attack than now, so ferrari did a wise job to simulate the levels of downforce with the levels of drag.

As for what the 09 will look like we'll see, but according to many sources inside teams, the main bodywork itself looks very sleek, but Patrick Head said he didn't like the wings.

That being said, each team will have different wings, so we will see the final package maybe in november or so as it is supposed teams will run their prototype in advance since there's a real big change.

[Scotracer]

In fact schumacher was running with the 09 levels of downforce.
The thing is that by removing bargeboards and wingelts they reduced dramatically the downforce of the underfloor and rear wing.

This is to simulate what i was talking about. Next year, since the rear wing will be narrower, it will be ran a the same angle of attack than now, so ferrari did a wise job to simulate the levels of downforce with the levels of drag.

As for what the 09 will look like we'll see, but according to many sources inside teams, the main bodywork itself looks very sleek, but Patrick Head said he didn't like the wings.

That being said, each team will have different wings, so we will see the final package maybe in november or so as it is supposed teams will run their prototype in advance since there's a real big change.

How likely is it that the FIA may reconsider some of the rule changes, since they haven't been finalised? Would this cause too many problems for the teams as they will be getting into full swing of development? For instance, reducing the width of the front wing to reduce the risk of it being damaged by contact. I know the reason for the front wing width; having an out of proportion front wing means they have to run less rear wing to maintain balance but front downforce is lost when following a car, so they driver can compensate by increasing the angle of attack (and on such a wide wing, it'd make a significant difference). It's logical but damn it's going to be ugly

What I think the OWG should have done is take the Champcar route and allow more under-floor aero work, lower the front wing and eliminated most of the upper body work (back to late 90's). I don't know how feasible it would have been, or if it would have really helped much but it seems to me like it would.

[WhiteBlue]

The OWG was started by the teams and staffed by the leading teams of that time. all the other teams accepted the proposal and they all got working on it. they just never told the public the details. a pity that the FIA do not update the regs on their page anymore. they seem to have lost the interest for public information lately.

[Ogami musashi]

As stated above, the rules are adopted already, it's just some areas are still under discussions (including aerodynamics) but overall the deal is done.

The risk of contact was known from the start but the risk has been taken.

I'm not too much in favor of underfloor aeros in that it makes cars a bit understeery, and it also prevent for channeling the flows on the body but we'll see what happens.

As for the fIA official site, i've been told the regulations will be uploaded when finalized, it's just they're not. I think they won't be at least until the next WMSC council in june.

I tend to remember there's a obligation for the FIA to publish them at least in july.