Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

[lio007]

Red Bull is already working on the 2019 RB15-Honda or Aston Martin and so don't expect Red Bull to bring that many developments to the RB14. Expect Red Bulls 2018 wind tunnel and simulator testing to be used purely for the development of it's 2019 RB15.

Is it your assumption / guess / opinion, or is it a fact and confirmed by e.g. Insiders?

Regarding oil: i think Mobil1 did a decent job in 2017. There were no obvious lack of Performance caused by fuel or lubricants.

I think at this stage he is just throwing --- at the wall and waiting to see what sticks.

haha...but, take it into consideration and let's say "what if"....

What if they are already working on RB15-HONDA:
Maybe, could be a wise decision as Renault will favour its own team sooner or later (I know they have been very fair in the past, but if you want to win a championship you can't treat your own team the same as your customers). I can't believe e.g. that all Merc-teams are having equal material in every single detail. For me, it's hard to believe the deficit is only due to the chassis.

What if they don't bring (m)any developments to the RB14:
Ah...that's unlikely. We have stable regulations so why shouldn't RBR bring developments to the car that can be carried over to the RB15. And it's hard to believe that absolutely nothing could be carried over to the RB15. On-track testing and verification is always better than just rely on simulations.
Let's assume they will have a Honda in 2019. I don't think the car will be fundamentally different that they need all CFD and WT-time for the RB15.

[McHonda]

Nah it doesn't need much, McLaren have already done it and Red Bull would just be doing the reverse. A team on it from the summer if the swap to Honda is definitely on would be sufficient based on what McLaren have said. STR is only slightly different because of resources so they might need more time or struggle a bit more but RB can easily cope as well as McLaren have.

They certainly won't be stopping development of their 2018 car as they should be in a title fight if Renault have a good enough winter and good luck explaining that to Dan and Max if they stop in-season development. And there will be parts they can carry over anyway so the idea they'd focus solely on 2019 and Honda is plain daft unless Renault have their worst winter ever and effectively rule RB out of contention from the start.

Which is what that poster hopes happens and is basing his opinions on but it doesn't look very likely to me. Even if they don't get on top of the K, which they will I'm sure, they've got a pretty reliable 2016 spec to use which carries a weight penalty but with the increase in weight due to the HALO then if the customers are cute enough which Red Bull usually are, they can save weight there to compensate. McLaren have already said they still have ballast so they can take any weight penalty with the K no problem and you'd think RB can do similar.

[carisi2k]

I would very much love to see the RB14 be a championship contender in 2018 but in Renault I have no faith. Daniel was lucky his engine survived in Baku and Max was lucky in Mexico. Red Bull were continuing to tell max to slow down during the whole race to save the engine. Imagine if Seb and Lewis had not hit each other and were pushing him. It would have resulted in a 5th Renault engine exploding that weekend.

All that I know is that Renault don't have a good history with these new turbo engines and that the 8 victories are purely down to the Red Bull chassis / Mercedes benz and Ferrari stuff ups. Honda have obviously not shown any better but to win a championship you need a Mercedes engine and neither Red Bull or Mclaren have that. At least in Honda Red Bull would have an improving engine with improving reliability going into 2018 and no Cyril to deal with.

[f1316]

I guess the thing with RB is that, not dissimilarly to McLaren, they’re looking for works status and Honda is their only option for that now - pending other entrants in 2020/1 (probably hedging their bets with Aston/Cosworth).

The difference is that they may think McLaren’s already done the hard bit, taken most of the pain, and that it will only take a further year of TR dev to bring proper performance.

That said, there’s no way a team design a car with enough leeway to fit two different PUs - they will absolutely optimise to the Renault for 2018 with a hope of fighting for the championship; building in some kind of ability to retrofit a Honda would immediately scupper those chances.

[PlatinumZealot]

The Power units will all fit into different chassis and gearbox physically with minimal modifications. The problem is the package won't be optimised to be light weight, aerodynamic, cooling efficient and so on. I remember when McLaren built that Frankenstein MP4-30 with those ugly hoses and tie straps sitcking out all over the place! It looked like a high school project on steroids! It drove around the track though! (at least for a few laps before the engine blew)lol
But yes the engines will fit. But it just like doing an engine swap in a street car, connections, bit and bobs and auxiliaries are in different locations and it is a game of compromise if you don't customize.

[Just_a_fan]

The Power units will all fit into different chassis and gearbox physically with minimal modifications.

Not so. The front of the engine is usually inset in to the rear face of the tub. Each engine will require a different tub for a start. You could make an adaptor but that will increase the unit's over all length. That then requires different bodywork and a different floor. Changes in length also affect aero.

[FPV GTHO]

Theres some standardisation with the fitment, but i believe its only things like the mounting face and the crank height. Engines like the Mercedes and Honda with the compressor on the front of the engine are going to have alot of unique fitment solutions

[f1316]

The point is: they won’t do it because it’s not the optimum performance they can achieve.

It’s a nice idea that they could switch to Honda midseason if it somehow proved competitive, but even if they wanted to do this, to optimise use of either PU would require different things, so there’s no way they’re creating a ‘one size fits all’ chassis. Just not the best way to go racing.

[skoop]

I don't think Honda has the capabilities to supply 2 teams right now. So they would either need to increase their production or design the Toro Rosso for 2 units as well.

An engine change wont happen. However, if the Renault PU underperforms, I expect the blame game to start very early and the relationship will end very badly.

[PlatinumZealot]

The Power units will all fit into different chassis and gearbox physically with minimal modifications.

Not so. The front of the engine is usually inset in to the rear face of the tub. Each engine will require a different tub for a start. You could make an adaptor but that will increase the unit's over all length. That then requires different bodywork and a different floor. Changes in length also affect aero.

Chassis Spacers (kidding here no such thing). Flat compressor intakes. New piping Etc. Thats what i mean minimal. Anything not cutting the structurechassis of or gearbox.

[Big Tea]

Probably stretching the realms of possibility, and in no way likley, but would it be possible to create a cage or subframe and use identical mounts in the STR and RBR cars?

I realise this would be just the thin end of the problem wedge as weight etc would still be a problem, but if RBR were really so ticked off with Renault that they wanted a back door to sneak out through mid season a structure that already accounted for stresses and alignments would go a long way towards doing a 'quick switcharoo' and I don't think RBR would be that concerned if it was to the detriment of STR for the season either.

[lio007]

What has caused all this speculation that RBR may consider an inseason PU-change? I can't remember any reports or rumours...

I think they can't afford a trial and error attitude. They need to be competitive from the first track appearance, because RIC is evaluating the car's performance. So, they need an optimised chassis for the Renault-PU.
I can even imagine McLaren could outpace RBR if the latter is going to switch to Honda during next years season.
Ontrack testing is so restricted these days and I don't think you can simulate an engine change to the very last detail.

Therefore I think the RB14 is solely designed for the Renault-PU.
But in my opinion it's the last chassis with a Renault-PU, because sooner or later Renault will play the same game as Mercedes (the works team gets the best fuel-mapping-PU-hardware-combination, and it will be tough for a customer to beat the works team).

[Just_a_fan]

What has caused all this speculation that RBR may consider an inseason PU-change? I can't remember any reports or rumours...

It was simply someone saying "maybe RedBull will watch STR and if the engine is good they'll swap engines and run the rest of the season with the Honda". That's it. The rest has been people showing why that's a stupid idea.

[FPV GTHO]

I don't think Honda has the capabilities to supply 2 teams right now. So they would either need to increase their production or design the Toro Rosso for 2 units as well.

If theyre reliable enough i think thryve already proven their production output is enough for 2 teams.

[carisi2k]

I never said an in season switch. I said with their knowledge of both the Honda and Renault 2018 PU's and with Renault still struggling with the kers that the RB14 might end up with a Honda come the first pre season test.