Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[63l8qrrfy6]

Actually there are many ways a bearing can fail besides oil starvation and excessive combustion loads: wear, cavitation, overheating, surface fatigue, debris, loss of bolt load etc.

Just because components don't break during the race does not mean they are not updated as soon as there is a good reason to do so.

[dmjunqueira]

[...] They are many more innovations in the pipeline which I highly doubt the other manufacturers will have in 2018 or ever for that matter, that Honda will try and fully incorporate by mid-season [...]

As Mr. Eastwood would say, do you feel lucky, punk ? Motorbikes, but it's the Honda way : https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... -easy-road Honda, they're nuts, but that's why we love 'em !

Thanks for sharing the article...Reading it, I became aware of the existence this "aberration":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NR500

(Oval pistons, eight valves per cylinder and two con rods and two sparks per cylinder)

This is Honda thinking outside the box.

Sorry if this is too of topic.

[PlatinumZealot]

I wonder if silicone fluids have been used/considered. They can be formulated with viscosities thinner than water and are said to have good capillary and wetting action. Not flammable, although combustible. Inert/non-reactive, depending on formulation, which may be something to consider in regards to oil-injection. The effect of non-reactivity; the effect of not-burning. Atomized heat-resistant, combustion-resistant fluids to absorb shock, provide nucleation points, add mass, alter airflow.

Silicone damages oxygen sensors so that might be no-no.

[Postmoe]

[...] They are many more innovations in the pipeline which I highly doubt the other manufacturers will have in 2018 or ever for that matter, that Honda will try and fully incorporate by mid-season [...]

As Mr. Eastwood would say, do you feel lucky, punk ? Motorbikes, but it's the Honda way : https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... -easy-road Honda, they're nuts, but that's why we love 'em !

Thanks for sharing the article...Reading it, I became aware of the existence this "aberration":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NR500
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... piston.jpg
(Oval pistons, eight valves per cylinder and two con rods and two sparks per cylinder)

This is Honda thinking outside the box.

Sorry if this is too of topic.

Oh, thanks.... just lost a couple of hours with this engine ---

[Tommy Cookers]

the NR500 (and race versions of some Honda V4 production machines) had a zero degree crankshaft
not impossible eg in a Honda F1

[gruntguru]

. . . a zero degree crankshaft
not impossible eg in a Honda F1.

Now that would be interesting. 50% of the bangs would be big ones.

[toraabe]

In any case I imagine that there's a lot of performance to be found in the right pre-chamber volume, the number shape and size of the nozzles. The injection timing and spray pattern, the combustion chamber shape, all have to be balanced together to get the most out of it. I do think they're pushing the regulations but no one is burning oil for power(the calorific value of motor oil is lower than gasoline, and at best will only serve to lower octane), at best there's 2 liters of fuel that you can store outside of the fuel tank. Even with the most economical piping you'd still be able to store no more than a liter outisde the fuel tank, that probably would be worth one or two laps at most.

In most dual fuel experiments the supplemental fuel use was minimal, similar to the consumption of most urea exhaust after treatments in diesels. ~3,000km/gallon.

But then how would you control this with just one injector, with all pipework to recirculate vapors into the engine now forbidden by the regulations. The only freedom you have is in how air enters the engine and exits it. The valves, and valve timing events, the head ports, and the combustion chamber. The rest of it all has to be FIA approved.

To be honest I think we're at the point that the block, crank, MGU-K and rods could all probably be standardized, as I doubt much development goes on there. When we hear of failures it's seldom these components anyway, it's always the turbo, or a coolant leak, or an electrical gremlin, or hydraulic pressure, or pneumatic pressure. The times the lower assembly fails it's usually due to detonation in the combustion chamber anyway. Like when Hamilton's engine let go in Malaysia, or Alonso in Montreal. Plain bearings don't just spin, valves don't just bend, there's always a cause.

And then you need to find the right pre charge ( Mgu-H ) and the right turbine and so on . Takes long time

[roon]

. . . a zero degree crankshaft
not impossible eg in a Honda F1.

Now that would be interesting. 50% of the bangs would be big ones.

Or 100% of them would be really big ones. Recall Wazari did elude to a "short" crankshaft last year, never specifying short in height, or short in length. Height-wise, the "shortest" crankshafts would be flat-plane and 0-degee. I don't know if exhaust frequency analysis bore this out or not.

[gruntguru]

The difference would be obvious to the ear.

[Postmoe]

. . . a zero degree crankshaft
not impossible eg in a Honda F1.

Now that would be interesting. 50% of the bangs would be big ones.

Or 100% of them would be really big ones. Recall Wazari did elude to a "short" crankshaft last year, never specifying short in height, or short in length. Height-wise, the "shortest" crankshafts would be flat-plane and 0-degee. I don't know if exhaust frequency analysis bore this out or not.

Moderators feel free to erase this, but using to elude instead of "to allude" changes dramatically the meaning of the sentence. Short crankshafts surely were not pursuing poor Wazari san

[Big Mangalhit]

"Spec 4" could have been implemented last season but for a myriad of reasons it was not.

The baseline for the 618's numbers is an improvement over the most recent 617. I can't go into specifics.

"Innovations" have to do with the ICE's components and ERS processes.

well perhaps you do live on cloud number 9 claiming innovations in the pipeline that you highly doubt the other manufacturers will have in 2018 or ever for that matter
i'll believe it when i see it.

I don't live on cloud number 9 but I hear it is a nice neighborhood. "Ever" meaning under this current PU formula (2020). We now have a very good idea what the other 3 have been doing with regards to what people are calling "TJI" although it's really not TJI but similar, and what HRD will bring with it's on unique combustion process that cannot be easily duplicated.

It's always nice to read your posts, they are clearly from someone who is knowledgeable and polite. Yet I think that you suffer from the same problem as I do, eternal optimism. I mean since 2015 I am reading these sorts os sentences saying that there is a new uptdate that will skyrocket Honda to be competitive but every time it hits the track it's a massive blunder. Hope this time the one but I think I need to be more careful with expectations tbh.

I also highly doubt McLaren will switch engine suppliers nor will it take Honda 4 to 5 years without a podium. McLaren Honda will be on the podium in 2016.

[godlameroso]

well perhaps you do live on cloud number 9 claiming innovations in the pipeline that you highly doubt the other manufacturers will have in 2018 or ever for that matter
i'll believe it when i see it.

I don't live on cloud number 9 but I hear it is a nice neighborhood. "Ever" meaning under this current PU formula (2020). We now have a very good idea what the other 3 have been doing with regards to what people are calling "TJI" although it's really not TJI but similar, and what HRD will bring with it's on unique combustion process that cannot be easily duplicated.

It's always nice to read your posts, they are clearly from someone who is knowledgeable and polite. Yet I think that you suffer from the same problem as I do, eternal optimism. I mean since 2015 I am reading these sorts os sentences saying that there is a new uptdate that will skyrocket Honda to be competitive but every time it hits the track it's a massive blunder. Hope this time the one but I think I need to be more careful with expectations tbh.

I also highly doubt McLaren will switch engine suppliers nor will it take Honda 4 to 5 years without a podium. McLaren Honda will be on the podium in 2016.

To be fair, they almost were on the podium at least twice in 2016, all they needed was an untimely retirement. They started making serious gains towards the second half of 2017, maybe not as big as we would have liked, but the rate of progress from Honda is better than the others. Granted, it's easier to take big steps when you're so far behind, but you can never count out Honda. They're no longer re-inventing the power unit, and more importantly the foundation is good, it's no longer heavily compromised by having the turbo within the V, they now understand the F1 style TJI, they've had a year to redesign the oil tank, and the bearings for the MGU-H.

There's simply no possible way the power unit will start 2018 as badly as they did 2017. Both Renault and Ferrari had to take a step backwards before they could take a step forward.

Maybe my optimism comes from having worked on and raced Hondas for the last 10 years, I know they make good engines, even boosted to hell and back they can be reliable.

[Blackout]

To be fair, they almost were on the podium at least twice in 2016, all they needed was an untimely retirement. They started making serious gains towards the second half of 2017, maybe not as big as we would have liked, but the rate of progress from Honda is better than the others. Granted, it's easier to take big steps when you're so far behind

And when you bring and use new engines every weekend

[63l8qrrfy6]

the NR500 (and race versions of some Honda V4 production machines) had a zero degree crankshaft
not impossible eg in a Honda F1

It is interesting that you mention the NR500 as there are quite a few similarities to the approach Honda took in F1.

Both engines were designed by young inexperienced teams, both had bold unconventional features and both were raging disasters.

[godlameroso]

Learning why you shouldn't do something is sometimes a more important lesson than learning why someone else does something.