HALO Approved for 2018

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adrianjordan
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Manoah2u wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 14:02
adrianjordan wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 06:48
NathanOlder wrote:
22 Feb 2018, 20:52
If "debris puncturing through the floor is overlooked is simple." is aimed at me, then I think you have misread my post, or just missed the point i was putting across. I was referring to the Floor being damaged on the Halo as it enters the cockpit.

Just out of interest, how many examples of serious injury because of head debry has their been in open wheel racing ? and of those how much will the Halo help, just as an example the Halo probably did nothing for Massa in 09.

I have Justin Wilson, Henry Surtees saved by the Halo, and WIlson would have been saved by the canopy. So only Surtees would have been saved by the Halo alone.
I dont know about Dan Wheldon could he have been saved, the forces involved were mesmerising. So thats a debate not worth getting in to.

Serious injuries where the Halo would do nothing,

Massa 09, Schumacher 99, Hakkinen 95, Billy Monger 17, Jules Bianchi 16, Sergio Perez 11, Robert Kubica 07.

These were just examples i could think of , of the top of my head. Im struggling to see how you can call Big debry to the head as the biggest contributer to serious injury?
I don't think it would have necessarily have helped Maria de Villotta either as the tail-lift could quite easily have gone in the gap under the halo.
please, don't bring up totally untruthful arguments like that.

#-o #-o #-o

the halo can resist the force of a london bus.
maria's case, the car itself would have 'dived' under the truck's loading platform / rear door. the rear door of the truck itself also is 'flexible' to a degree that the arm will move up or down depending on the load is pressured on it. the speed and force maria's car would have carried, paired with the strenght of the halo, would make maria's car both 'dive' and push it downwards by the marussia's own suspension, and would similarly 'push' the loading platform 'upwards'. there would not be the full entire force of the truck's weight put on the halo.

the front of the halo is forward enough from the helmet. maria's car would have to hit the loading platform diagonally on it's most extended corners to have it be able to penetrate - in other words, the car would have to be sliding in a 45 degree angle - without slowing down and without changing direction - for the corners of the loading platform to have a chance of passing through the opening at the halo.

come on, be realistic. :roll:

again, as for Bianchi's accident - the abrubtness of the stop would not have been changed whether the halo did or did not exist, so that G-force itself would have remained the same and that specific damage to bianchi would have been the same. however bianchi's helmet had hit the caterpillar loader, causing additional shock and damage. that would NOT have happened with the halo - also, the halo is able to withstand the weight of a london bus, so it's reasonable to believe that also in this case, bianch's car would have 'dived' downward, which would have meant his helmet would not have hit the caterpillar, and the car itself would have had further damage, perhaps even taking some minor extra energy out of the equation and thus the total force inflicted. the top of the car was already taken off bianchi's car, the halo would simply have protected the driver's head from ever getting an impact. the shape itself - again - makes it possible the halo doesn't get the full (exponential) damage from the collision , it would have taken damage and deflected it by 'lifting' the truck upwards (the force itself already moved the caterpillar) even further, aswell as further 'diving' the car downwards.

whether that would have saved bianchi's life is another question alltogether but you can be guaranteed that it would have inflicted less total damage and thus, his chances - as remote as they were - would have been ever so slightly bigger, and that might have meant the difference between life and death. if it would have finally resulted in the possibility of recovery or being permanently braindamaged and confined to a wheelchair ala stephen hawking-style is another story alltogether.

but if we're looking at increasing chances for survival, the halo does work for even bianchi's crash.

there is simply no way that the indyscreen would have had any difference on bianchi's crash, and i am doubtfull whether it would have in devillota's case. the RedBull aeroscreen might have, as it essentially is a halo with a screen attached to it. however, if i'm not mistaken, the aeroscreen like the indyscreen slopes down on the sides and exposes part of the driver's helmet, whereas the halo itself 'tops off' at the helmet. a flat object [unlike a wheel] will thus not be able to hit the driver's helmet top-side.

i agree though that there is still a chance that the top of the helmet, in the centre of the halo, might still be hit by a wheel since it's shape allows it to enter the opening inside the halo - if it hits it under that 'perfect' angle. just a few cm's to the side and it bounces off the bar of the halo.

in case of the indyscreen and the aeroscreen, both protect much less than the halo in that case, aswell as bianchi and devillota's case - ALSO in schumacher-liuzzi crash.

hence, the halo remains the safest solution.

it's really not that hard.
Also you bring up Stephen Hawking.

You do know that he has a degenerative muscle and nerve disease don't you?

His brain is trapped inside a body that won't work properly. Not at all the same as someone with a TBI.
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SunsAnvil
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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I finally realised what the HALO reminds me of. Anyone seen "The Jerk"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaz2hxZLycY

Manoah2u
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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adrianjordan wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 16:33
Manoah2u wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 14:02
adrianjordan wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 06:48


I don't think it would have necessarily have helped Maria de Villotta either as the tail-lift could quite easily have gone in the gap under the halo.
please, don't bring up totally untruthful arguments like that.

#-o #-o #-o

the halo can resist the force of a london bus.
maria's case, the car itself would have 'dived' under the truck's loading platform / rear door. the rear door of the truck itself also is 'flexible' to a degree that the arm will move up or down depending on the load is pressured on it. the speed and force maria's car would have carried, paired with the strenght of the halo, would make maria's car both 'dive' and push it downwards by the marussia's own suspension, and would similarly 'push' the loading platform 'upwards'. there would not be the full entire force of the truck's weight put on the halo.

the front of the halo is forward enough from the helmet. maria's car would have to hit the loading platform diagonally on it's most extended corners to have it be able to penetrate - in other words, the car would have to be sliding in a 45 degree angle - without slowing down and without changing direction - for the corners of the loading platform to have a chance of passing through the opening at the halo.

come on, be realistic. :roll:

again, as for Bianchi's accident - the abrubtness of the stop would not have been changed whether the halo did or did not exist, so that G-force itself would have remained the same and that specific damage to bianchi would have been the same. however bianchi's helmet had hit the caterpillar loader, causing additional shock and damage. that would NOT have happened with the halo - also, the halo is able to withstand the weight of a london bus, so it's reasonable to believe that also in this case, bianch's car would have 'dived' downward, which would have meant his helmet would not have hit the caterpillar, and the car itself would have had further damage, perhaps even taking some minor extra energy out of the equation and thus the total force inflicted. the top of the car was already taken off bianchi's car, the halo would simply have protected the driver's head from ever getting an impact. the shape itself - again - makes it possible the halo doesn't get the full (exponential) damage from the collision , it would have taken damage and deflected it by 'lifting' the truck upwards (the force itself already moved the caterpillar) even further, aswell as further 'diving' the car downwards.

whether that would have saved bianchi's life is another question alltogether but you can be guaranteed that it would have inflicted less total damage and thus, his chances - as remote as they were - would have been ever so slightly bigger, and that might have meant the difference between life and death. if it would have finally resulted in the possibility of recovery or being permanently braindamaged and confined to a wheelchair ala stephen hawking-style is another story alltogether.

but if we're looking at increasing chances for survival, the halo does work for even bianchi's crash.

there is simply no way that the indyscreen would have had any difference on bianchi's crash, and i am doubtfull whether it would have in devillota's case. the RedBull aeroscreen might have, as it essentially is a halo with a screen attached to it. however, if i'm not mistaken, the aeroscreen like the indyscreen slopes down on the sides and exposes part of the driver's helmet, whereas the halo itself 'tops off' at the helmet. a flat object [unlike a wheel] will thus not be able to hit the driver's helmet top-side.

i agree though that there is still a chance that the top of the helmet, in the centre of the halo, might still be hit by a wheel since it's shape allows it to enter the opening inside the halo - if it hits it under that 'perfect' angle. just a few cm's to the side and it bounces off the bar of the halo.

in case of the indyscreen and the aeroscreen, both protect much less than the halo in that case, aswell as bianchi and devillota's case - ALSO in schumacher-liuzzi crash.

hence, the halo remains the safest solution.

it's really not that hard.
Also you bring up Stephen Hawking.

You do know that he has a degenerative muscle and nerve disease don't you?

His brain is trapped inside a body that won't work properly. Not at all the same as someone with a TBI.
for real dude.

i'm not talking about that he has the same disease, i'm talking about the effects being that he might have ended up sitting in a chair like hawking #-o . have you no imagination?

also,

the gap between chassis and halo? are you for real right now? #-o #-o #-o :roll:

the tailgate hit her helmet at the visor area, and you are actually talking about a realistically or actual non-existing gap between the halo and chassis? :? :? :?

wow.
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Morteza
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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From the Williams car thread

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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NathanOlder
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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As the caterpillar loader that Bianchi hit is about 13 tonnes, which funnily enough about the same as a double decker bus, the amount of force that was involved when hitting the Loader would have smashed the Halo to pieces. I know it probably would have been a different accident so who knows what would have happened.
If the Loader had a skirt like a cow catcher on a train. Jules would have been walking away.
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NathanOlder
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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@Manoah2u I think adrianjordan means if Maria was hit by the corner of the low loader, it could still hit her in the head. Which it could.
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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NathanOlder wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 18:11
@Manoah2u I think adrianjordan means if Maria was hit by the corner of the low loader, it could still hit her in the head. Which it could.
i actually covered that the possibility of that is absolutely minimal but even then as good as impossible as it would mean the car would need to be in a sideways motion - not frontal. it would have to be at a 45 degree angle, thus angled sideways in a constant non-direction changing motion - as the 90 degree angle would block entry through the headrest.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

Jolle
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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There are three major reasons why accidents become bad accidents or worse, fatalities.

1. The car/gear doesn't protect the driver. Fireproofing, crash structures, theatres and the survival cel are solutions for this. Accidents that were worse because this part was flawed are: Henry Surties, Senna, Justin Wilson.
2. Enviroment: track, guardrails, runoff etc. Accidents that were worse because of failure or having equipment in the wrong place: Maria De Viotta, Francois Cevert
3. Procedures: pit limits, yellow flags, etc: accidents that were worse because of failure of procedures: Jules Bianchi.

The Halo is a solution for crashes under 1, not a procedural mistake to drive a car too fast when a JCB is on the side of the track or when someone lets a knifelike door open at eye hight.

Just_a_fan
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Wow, people are still coming up with silly examples that prove the halo is useless. What they really mean, but aren't prepared to say, is "I don't like it because its ugly/it's not cool like the screen". Being ugly doesn't make it less effective as a safety item, of course, so they come up with examples of where it won't work. They fail to admit that the alternatives also won't work in those same situations.

Let's summarise the thread:
Is the halo perfect? No.
Is it the best, currently available, method of protecting the drivers' heads in certain accidents as specified by the FIA? Yes.
Will other systems be developed to give as good protection? Possibly.
Should they be used by the teams? Only if they can be shown to be as effective as the halo.
Can we all move on now? Noooooo - the halo won't stop a smart bomb dropped by a B2 from 50,000ft so it's obviously useless!!!!!!! The aeroscreen looks waaaayyy cooler and should be used instead!!!!
Will the aeroscreen stop a smart bomb? You're just being silly now! But it was your example! Only against the halo, which I hate.
Rinse
Repeat.

There, I think that sums it up nicely.
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NathanOlder
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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I can see the positives in the halo. Im just not willing to let people make claims it would have saved or stopped things like jules, maria, felipe ect.

@Manoah2u

What direction does this car need to go in to cause serious injuries ?

The blue is the lorry. The red is the loading lift on the back of the lorry and its at the height of the drivers eyes.

Sorry for the poor picture

Image
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adrianjordan
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Manoah2u wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 18:25
NathanOlder wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 18:11
@Manoah2u I think adrianjordan means if Maria was hit by the corner of the low loader, it could still hit her in the head. Which it could.
i actually covered that the possibility of that is absolutely minimal but even then as good as impossible as it would mean the car would need to be in a sideways motion - not frontal. it would have to be at a 45 degree angle, thus angled sideways in a constant non-direction changing motion - as the 90 degree angle would block entry through the headrest.
But it DID hit her in the area that it would have to hit.

You don't have to be at 45 degrees, just with the tail-lift offset to one side such that it misses thw central pillar but still hits her helmet. The exact gap which is there so that drivera can see out of.
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adrianjordan
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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Manoah2u wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 18:06


the tailgate hit her helmet at the visor area, and you are actually talking about a realistically or actual non-existing gap between the halo and chassis? :? :? :?

wow.
There's no gap between the halo and chassis?? How do the drivers see out then??
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strad
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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the halo can resist the force of a london bus.
.
No it can withstand the weight...totally different measurements.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
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NathanOlder
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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strad wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 22:45
the halo can resist the force of a london bus.
.
No it can withstand the weight...totally different measurements.
Exactly, and thats about 13,000kg. Some people will see that as the Halo can move a london bus out the way if the car was doing 100mph! :lol: :lol:
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Re: HALO Approved for 2018

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strad wrote:
25 Feb 2018, 22:45
the halo can resist the force of a london bus.
.
No it can withstand the weight...totally different measurements.
Weight is a force.
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