KERS introduction issues, testing

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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WhiteBlue
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KERS introduction issues, testing

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http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/spor ... _13987.hbs
Only Mercedes and Toyota supported Renault's initiative to delay the introduction of KERS at the team principal meeting before the Spanish GP in Barcelona. Ferrari did not openly speak out in the argument with hybrid promoters Honda, BMW and Williams but showed some sympathy for the proposal to delay.

Officially Renault criticises the high development cost. Briatore talked about ball park figures up to 20 mil €. Aparently the main reason for Renault advocating delay is their lagging behind in development. The Renault hybrid prototype is said to take until January 2009 to get ready for testing. BMW and Honda will already show their initial versions mid June. Merc and Ferrari will probably test at the end of September.
this confirms a suspicion I have had for some time. it is a surprise though that Toyota is behind Williams.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

meves
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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I wonder if Toyota is trying to keep costs down, it still isn't doing well and we alway hear rumours that they will pull out if they do not see results. They maybe reducing costs and looking to become an engine supplier??? Also their road going hybrid doesn't really fit in with the initial KERS systems.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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meves wrote:I wonder if Toyota is trying to keep costs down, it still isn't doing well ....
today Toyota announced net profit for the last business year of $ 16.4 billion. this is more than all the other car manufacturers in F1 have combined! if there is one company that has money to burn it is Toyota.

my impression of Toyota's problem in F1 is one of lack of focus. they need to find a top company man who knows how to manage motorsport and put him in charge for ten years. then they must throw everything domestically and in Europe behind the concept of this guy and stop changing tack every two years. look what BMW did with Theissen. it worked.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Belatti
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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WhiteBlue wrote:...my impression of Toyota's problem in F1 is one of lack of focus. they need to find a top company man who knows how to manage motorsport and put him in charge for ten years. then they must throw everything domestically and in Europe behind the concept of this guy and stop changing tack every two years. look what BMW did with Theissen. it worked.
Agree, and would add the lack of an exceptional driver (not only good as Jarno already is) but, then again, that is a consequence of not having a "top company manager"
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Carbon
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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Focus....we're gtting somewhat off topic.

Here's an overview of the KERS system that is widely anticipated to be used in F1, along with a video you might find interesting
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/08/auto ... n-mcelroy/

Enjoy.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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Honda and Williams are believed to use flywheel. Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, FI and probably most others arte believed to use elctric Kers. Due to comments from Frank Dernie I b elieve that the flywheel will also use an electric motor/generator.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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The reason the FIA wants to introduce this KERS device has nothing to do with being environmentally sensitive. It has to do with improving the "show". The 5 or 6 seconds of power boost the KERS provides will assist one car passing another more easily.

The biggest criticism of modern F1 racing is that there is so little actual overtaking on the track. It's all about pit strategy and qualifying. The "push to pass" button Cosworth developed for Champ Car made the on-track racing much more interesting. I'm sure KERS will do the same for F1. At least until one has a flywheel bearing failure, and the flywheel takes off like a bat-out-of-hell into the stands.

Here's a great video illustrating the devastation caused by the failure of a high kinetic energy device:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=t ... itesearch=
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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riff_raff wrote:The reason the FIA wants to introduce this KERS device has nothing to do with being environmentally sensitive. It has to do with improving the "show". The 5 or 6 seconds of power boost the KERS provides will assist one car passing another more easily. ....
While I'm inclined to let this slip as personal opinion it sticks up as inconsistent with what we know from public sources. FIA and GPMA reached agreement about a number of strategic issues ranging from engines to KERS and published the road map for this after high level talks were conducted between Mosley and Göschl.

The manufacturers and the FIA said that they see KERS and HERS as an important element of F1 doing research for road cars. They are hoping that the environmental effect of F1 research will have a huge leverage by speeding up the practical application to road cars.

I don't know how they arrived at the decision to impose the known restrictions of how much power to store and energy to release but it must have been motivated by some complex horse trading. but surely the general decision to do KERS and HERS was the strategic issue they shared. the boost became a tactic found as a means of implementation.

Flywheel safety will be an important issue and I can imagine that the manufacturers have spend a great deal of thought on how to contain that energy when something goes wrong. certainly the failure mode of a turbine blade and a composite fly wheel are vastly different in terms of bits starting to fly off at high speed.

In the meantime Autosport had interesting news
Honda first to run KERS in car

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, May 11th 2008, 07:16 GMT

Honda Racing are believed to have become the first team to run a version of the new Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS) that will be allowed in Formula One next year.

Although most teams are still finalising their concepts and working on the devices on test dynos, Honda's team principal Ross Brawn revealed at the Turkish Grand Prix that his team have already taken to the track with theirs.

When asked by autosport.com about the timetable for running the new systems in a car, Brawn said: "We've run it on a car for the first time. Not at a very high level but we've got it functioning."

Brawn would not expand on when the KERS had run, however, saying only that it was "recently."

The news of Honda's first test comes against the backdrop of further discussions between team principals over the Turkish weekend about the long-term future direction of KERS technology.

There was a lengthy meeting between a majority of team bosses on Force India boss Vijay Mallya's boat the Indian Empress on Friday night, as teams discussed the financial implications of developing KERS over the next few years.

Brawn believes, however, that accepting KERS is the correct way forward for F1 - and wholly relevant for car manufacturers involved in the sport.

"In some ways I can understand the contradiction of cost-cutting and then introducing technologies which are quite expensive," he said. "But for manufacturers like ourselves the technology has become relevant again, so it is valuable from that perspective.

"But there is this difficult balance of we want to give it enough performance to make it worthwhile, but if it has too much performance then it becomes compulsory and the small teams struggle. I am not quite sure where the balance is.

"We need to start running it to see what equilibrium we have got, and then see if we need to broaden the regulations to give it more potential advantage."
so Honda use other platforms for testing. have they put it in a IRL car to go around the F1 testing?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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The automotive OEM's have long known about flywheels as kinetic energy storage devices. But they dismissed them as unsuitable for use in production vehicles due to long term safety issues. So the FIA's supposed reasoning for promoting it as a technology stepping stone for automotive use is patently false.

Modern production automobiles are actually very high technology products. It literally costs billions of dollars to get a new one into production. That's far more money than even the top F1 teams have available. So the flow of technology tends to be from the manufacturers to the race teams, and not the other way as you would suggest. Part of the technology that is being discussed specifically, the toroidal CVT part of the KERS, has been in production by Nissan/Jatco for almost a decade now.

Most of the other high tech stuff in F1 (ie. composite chassis, CFD, FEA and CAD software, digital engine ECU's, CRC brakes and clutches, etc.) were all originally developed by the aerospace industry. And the reason they have not been widely adopted by the auto industry (except for the engineering softwares and solid state, digital ECU) is that they are not cost effective.

The notion that racing technology flows down to improve production cars is a false one.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: KERS introduction issues, testing

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Some of these observations are certainly correct. It is expensive to develop road cars. It is also true that F1 has taken lots of aerospace tech on board since Barnard used the carbon fiber monocoque idea.

That doesn't necessarily mean that F1 using KERS and HERS cannot contribute to the faster application of such systems to road cars. The first applications will not be new technology but we will see at least two different approaches in the limited 2009 rules.

Later there will be much more scope and teams may profit from basic research that manufacturers do anyway. They can now use an integrated approach in terms of F1 and road car budgets. resources trained in F1 and road cars can use their skills in both fields and inventions made in F1 can quickly go to the road cars.

Such effects have happened in the past. I just remind you of Frank Dernies active suspension system. Much of these ideas have later been reused with appropriate modifications for road car active suspension.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)