General Honda F1 Topic

[ME4ME]

Christian Horner and Matschitz are not that foolish. They will wait to decide by mid-season.

Well obviously not. They have an early May deadline. It basically gives Red Bull the time to observe Honda for four races. Although testing has been positive so far for Honda, I think it is indeed crucial to wait and see how their real relative performance is compared to the other manufacturers. Surely people will arrive with new race-spec versions or unlocked performance modes at the Australian Grand Prix, and it is from there on onwards that Red Bull can judge the situation.

[Soichiro]

Christian Horner and Matschitz are not that foolish. They will wait to decide by mid-season.

Well obviously not. They have an early May deadline. It basically gives Red Bull the time to observe Honda for four races. Although testing has been positive so far for Honda, I think it is indeed crucial to wait and see how their real relative performance is compared to the other manufacturers. Surely people will arrive with new race-spec versions or unlocked performance modes at the Australian Grand Prix, and it is from there on onwards that Red Bull can judge the situation.

Not really sure about that. Should have a look at the contract to know all the aspects (which we won't get). Leave alone what one side have said - could be just a "barking dog that cannot bite". Also FIA made that rule for customers not engine makers - correct me if I am wrong.

[NathanOlder]

If they switch and Honda somehow turn out as bad as they were in 2015-17 i think Max would make Alonso's comments on Honda look very tame lol

What can Red Bull do in May, surely Renault wont offer them a 1yr deal, it will be a couple at least. I think Red Bull will go Honda for sure .

[Soichiro]

If they switch and Honda somehow turn out as bad as they were in 2015-17 i think Max would make Alonso's comments on Honda look very tame lol

Hardly. There is at least 1 very good reason he wouldn't: He has a long career in front of him, while Alonso just doesn't care. And from testing, we can clearly see that not all of the problems and possibly even lack of performance were only down to Honda . But I guess we are off-topic.

[etusch]

If they switch and Honda somehow turn out as bad as they were in 2015-17 i think Max would make Alonso's comments on Honda look very tame lol

What can Red Bull do in May, surely Renault wont offer them a 1yr deal, it will be a couple at least. I think Red Bull will go Honda for sure .

That times passed*. now we have a very close Honda to Renault. We have just romours (about 940 hp Honda vs 950 hp Renault aim) so we have to wait until the season start but Honda looks to be close at least at same level power at start and also after power updates ( Redbull can see Honda's aim (dyno data from first hand) .
If Honda's first engine's life is better than renault and performance gap is low, Honda works deal become very logical.
Reliability, race performance and Qualification mode performance. I expect to see these are at coming tests. Redbull will prefer to watch first races too, then it will be an easy decision
* Ferrari also not good at first Turbo year but Alo couldn't say it GP2 engine. If he said it to ferrari he can not enter italy souls without body guards.

[carisi2k]

Red Bull have 2 options for 2019 and that is Honda and Renault. It doesn't matter how the Honda compares to Mercedes and Ferrari as those engine options are not available. The question therefore is which will be the better engine in 2019, Honda or Renault?

As for the 940HP vs 950hp. My understanding is that Renault isn't anywhere near 950hp as of yet due to reliability and are running similar power to Abu Dhabi which had them at about 920hp according to our gps tracking stats in another thread. Honda seems to be at 940hp in testing already and with reliability which is quite encouraging since they also have a step to come later this year that will take them over 950hp.

I think the deal for Red bull Honda in 2019 is already done in any case since Max has already been taken to the Honda factory which prompted him to sign a new contract and the Honda just put up 300 laps in testing without a breakdown.

[GhostF1]

Red Bull have 2 options for 2019 and that is Honda and Renault. It doesn't matter how the Honda compares to Mercedes and Ferrari as those engine options are not available. The question therefore is which will be the better engine in 2019, Honda or Renault?

As for the 940HP vs 950hp. My understanding is that Renault isn't anywhere near 950hp as of yet due to reliability and are running similar power to Abu Dhabi which had them at about 920hp according to our gps tracking stats in another thread. Honda seems to be at 940hp in testing already and with reliability which is quite encouraging since they also have a step to come later this year that will take them over 950hp.

I think the deal for Red bull Honda in 2019 is already done in any case since Max has already been taken to the Honda factory which prompted him to sign a new contract and the Honda just put up 300 laps in testing without a breakdown.

I think I agree with all of that. Although, I believe everyone is asking a lot of Honda straight away. I am not 100% sure Honda in the second test or in Melbourne will be a fully developed PU and start being the real challenger we all want. Believe me I wish it were so and yes it looks good now but it could easily fall behind a little when everyone starts leaning on the engine soon. I'm just being cautious.
Honda wanted 6 months and have stated the new engine step around May/June is where we'll see their real development.

[etusch]

I think we saw very good development from Honda. Last year as performance and at recent test as reliability. Still there are questions and I think those will be answered soon.

[techman]

i think for redbull going with honda is probably the wiser decision as renault will have their own ambition to win title. so more money from honda and manufacturers backing with the fact that honda are catching and will pass renault soon. according to reports that 950bhp is what renault wants to have in qual mode. so reality in race its even less. even more good news for honda. it time honda to shine. but torro rosso also need catching up to do due the fact it was about 0.8 sec slower to redbull last year

[HPD]

Franz Tost said they have the data on the 2017 renault engine and the 2018 Honda. And he said they are the same.

How much did Renault improve in 2018? 10/15/20 HP?

[NathanOlder]

Franz Tost said they have the data on the 2017 renault engine and the 2018 Honda. And he said they are the same.

How much did Renault improve in 2018? 10/15/20 HP?

None yet. Renault stated the power will remain the same as 2017 while they work on performance. Mr Horner was not impressed

[techman]

thats nice to hear. no wonder the TR is pretty decent on straights and faster than any renault

[carisi2k]

Remember that the 950+ hp that Renault is quoting is not reliable as of yet and Renault have stated they are currently running at the same hp rating as abu dhabi which we know to be roughly 920hp. From reading and watching youtube it seems Honda have squeezed most of the extra HP to match or pass Renault in being able to package the engine the way they want to in the STR13.

Without the restrictions imposed by Mclaren they can put the oil tank where they want, run a larger turbo which provides better energy recovery. They clearly have overcome reliability of the ERS systems with 1400km's of reliable running. Most of the gains seem to be coming in these areas and not in reinventing the wheel so to speak. I'm not saying the STR13 is optimised or built for the Honda. I'm saying that Honda has been able to finally run it's engine the way it was supposed to be run and in doing so has made gains in software, power, reliability and economy to match Renault at the very least.

[carisi2k]

Also note that with the amount of laps done by the Toro Rosso that it's lap times and straight line speeds would seem to have been done on decent fuel loads.

[Big Tea]

I would think it would be too difficult to change engines mid term unless it was very, very, important. They have a contract with Renault, and other suppliers, they have designed the car around Renault and have taken on sponsors and suppliers as Renault. What about the crash testing and Halo etc? would that carry over with an engine change or would the re-sited engine and different auxiliaries affect this? The engine is a stressed part of the structure is it not? Fuels, Lubricants etc are all geared to Renault.

Even if they move a crew over to the STR shed until the end of this season and switch factory development to the new car with a Honda engine they will hit the ground running next year and a clean slate.