Turkish Grand Prix 2008

[roost89]

Ahh, that's interesting. I wonder if he will go. I think he has a contract until the end of 2009. If this rumour has some basis of truth he may leave when it runs out.

[Miguel]

The rumour on the spanish broadcast is slightly different. The Tele5 comentators stated that Kimi might retire when his contract with ferrari runs out.

[WhiteBlue]

Keke Rosberg comments for German pay TV Premiere. He started the rumor in the Barcelona broadcast.

[checkered]

The fuel and tyre strategies were a big surprise. Hamilton really lost this one in qualifying and for the first time I have heared Ron being cxritical about him this year. He made a nice pass and earned some credit back. What went through Fisico's mind to ram a car in such a way? Mechanical fault? Nick did a reasonable job of damage limitation to get the car on 5th from 9oth. All the point scorers were doing fine and I'm pleased for Nico he got into the points. Alonso and Webber equaliy fine drives. Nakajima got a fair reward for tailending Kubica in Melbourne although I must say he didn't deserve the scare to have a car flying all the way across his head. Kimi was surprisingly anonymous this race. Something doesn't agree with this track for him?

Heikki was unfortunate once again but managed to get some miles done and get the car home. Piquet was as useless in the race as he was in qualifying. How long will Flav tolerate this kind of driving. Glock did some nice action with Heikki. I enjoyed that very much. Bourdasi was another bad luck candidate with a probable front brake disk failure. We see as worrying amount of component failures. Good luck in the bad luck saw a huge gravel bed in his way instead of a wall. Sutil and Vettel managed to finish the race and that is good for both. The track is interesting and it was a good race.

W/o the safety car

episode at the beginning, Hammy would've stopped a full 7-8 laps before Kovy. If Ron was critical, he had every right to be. That being said, both McLaren drivers produced some wonderful racing so it's good to see they weren't too demoralised by their mistakes. Lewis rode a very unlikely tactic to the podium and Heikki overtook something like seven cars during the course of the race, some pretty well matched in speed. Better matched than aerodynamics would allow, anyway, if the general consensus is to be believed.

I feel that Heikki was a bit too aggressive in moving away from Lewis (and into Kimi) in the first corner. Knowing the difference in fuel loads Kovy wasn't about to ruin his team mate's race after getting a worse start off the clean line. Especially as he nonetheless had a rather clear shot for a win from crusing most of the first stint at fourth or so. I don't quite know what to make of him; he seems a bit, well, ditzy to be a focussed F1 driver but with a new team and a very different driving style to Hamilton's (softer, less forceful) there's hardly anything between the two, now is there? Whitmarsh certainly was exceptionally full of praise for him after the race. It will be interesting to see how Macca can best make use of the situation. Perhaps the team could emphasize Hamilton's feedback for slower racetracks and in turn, accentuate Kovalainen's input when it comes to faster ones.

And if it's interesting between team mates at McLaren, Ferrari's situation is also intriguing. There's a chorus of outside voices (with, what, at least Lauda and Ralf Schumacher) calling for a clear favourite for the WDC to be picked. The evidence from Turkey doesn't seem to support the team wanting to do so. Even with gearbox problems ruining Raikkonen's only chance for setting up the car in qualy/race equivalent conditions he had reasonable pace. But by the time Hammy caught up with Massa, Felipe must've been quite aware that by protecting his position and thus slowing Lewis down Ferrari would've more likely emerged with yet another 1-2 and two points more for Kimi. Instead, he didn't put up much of a fight and after the race went on to state this on the record. I seriously doubt he would've done that against a categorical "wish" from Domenicali - even if Stefano and the rest of Ferrari's pit wall looked rather exasperated as they had to contend with the reality as it dawned on them when Hamilton pulled away from Felipe to secure the gap with Kimi. Evidence, too, that Massa sees Raikkonen as his greatest challenger for the title by far.

I was somewhat disappointed to see the BMW Saubers continuing to be suspended by a frustratingly small fraction behind their main rivals. The dynamics of the championship will become much different if they truly get their act together. Much better, that is. Frustration, too, at witnessing Williams' and Toyota's excruciatingly slow slipping down the order - I hope they can reverse that. Alonso and Webber have the luxury of pushing through the race, come what may. It's good to see that they've not wasted that opportunity and sincerely hope that they're having fun with it; a liberating experience like that can reflect well on future trials. I don't know what to think of Fisico's start, it looked terrifying and Nakajima can only count his blessings. I wonder, to what degree has this been discussed within the FIA or GPDA?

[Ray]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42625

Who's playing the blame game now. It was a simple suggestion that he not go more than 18 laps and Lewis is pointing the finger straight at Bridgestone. Funnily enough, Heikki set his car up with more fuel and he was in no danger of ruining his tires. Sounds to me like Lewis has car set up problems.

[WhiteBlue]

It is not a good thing that racing tyres cannot be used to the max inside the regular envelope. Bridgestone apparently had a safety problem on their hand from 2007 and they are not sure they resolved it. I am not impressed. As the control tyre supplier they could have used all the time to do some testing with Hamilton to sort this out. It is their first duty to provide a safe tyre for all drivers.

[bazanaius]

I agree. I think for a sole supplier, having your product not perform the same way for everyone is unfair. What makes it worse is that it is for safety reasons. If the drivers and teams cannot utilise the tyre to go quickly that is their fault -however, having the tyre manufacturer affect race strategy can't be good.

I thought the race was great - plenty of racing, which is nice. I thought Heikki did a great job despite being screwed over by Mc not changing his race strategy after the puncture. I thought Kimi wasn't that impressive - then again he didnt need to be, 3rd keeps him at the top of the table. Massa is exceptional at this track, I don't think anyone can deny that. I would like him to actually show that he can race though, rather than just drive quickly. I can't remember the last time I saw him overtake. Hamilton - drove very well; I would have loved to see him stick it on pole (yes, I am a fan) but I think the best way to describe his race was 'solid'. Even if Massa gave it to him easy it's still hard to overtake in these cars so to see someone who likes to chuck em in and see how it goes is refreshing.

[Ray]

It is not a good thing that racing tyres cannot be used to the max inside the regular envelope. Bridgestone apparently had a safety problem on their hand from 2007 and they are not sure they resolved it. I am not impressed. As the control tyre supplier they could have used all the time to do some testing with Hamilton to sort this out. It is their first duty to provide a safe tyre for all drivers.

I agree. I think for a sole supplier, having your product not perform the same way for everyone is unfair. What makes it worse is that it is for safety reasons. If the drivers and teams cannot utilise the tyre to go quickly that is their fault -however, having the tyre manufacturer affect race strategy can't be good.

What safety problem? Heikki had a rim explode on him, not the tire. And everyone else is in Turkey did just fine with the tires supplied to them. Only Lewis had a problem, and I think it was his setup. Not the behavior of the tire. Bridgestone didn't affect his strategy at all, they just suggested that witht the loads he was putting through the tire that they wouldn't last. No one else had this problem.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, some factual notes I made while googling around this theme:

Three cars did one stop strategy, so durability was strong.

Hamashima claimed they will analyze data to understand what happened. Last year he said the same thing, when Hamilton had the same problem: his tyre delaminated in turn 8.

Hamashima said to ITV that Bridgestone only request was that Hamilton stint had to be 18 laps maximum, stopping in laps 20 and 38. It was McLaren decission to do it in four stints or three stops.

Bridgestone claimed that "track and ambient temperature did not cause any issues".

Last year Sport Bild and some other papers blamed Alonso for not sharing his telemetry and for "demanding secrecy from McLaren" (!).

Kovalainen, in a heavier car, outqualified Hamilton, he did seven (!) more laps in his first stint.

Delamination is a fancy word for chunks of rubber ripped out of the tyre: the thread parts company with the carcasse.

It's the opossite of "chatter", where the tyres simply develop more force than the chassis can handle.

The ones I've seen happened because you heat a tyre too much. For example, bycicle tyres delaminate when used in rolling wheel trainers, indoors, because the rollers heat the tyres.

Delaminated tyre after a crash, maybe manufacturers fault, maybe extreme forces during the accident


In race cars, delamination is normally caused because you have a setup with lots of understeer. You have understeer, you turn too much the front tyres, the tyres get heated, they develop patches of soft rubber that get hardened in the following braking, in the entrance to the next curve, and there go marbles or strips out of your tyres.

Delaminated strip in the road typical of long distance roads, where the truck tyres get heated under heavy load and in long runs


You make your pit stop and you see "running scars" in the front tyres. While you take the curve, the wheel "stop shining" or gets grayer because of the heat.

When you are have delamination you feel the steering wheel slides and the front tyres heat: I call it understeering.

You're not gonna win because in the end of the race you'll have grained front tyres and you will find more difficult to handle long, fast curves.

Racing front tyre showing normal wear (thanks to the article recommended by DaveKillens ages ago)


Extremely grained front tyre, almost delaminated. This tyre is toast. Go back to the simulator if you're the driver or recheck you're telemetry if you're the engineer


When you have chattered tyres you feel something rips the wheel from your hands: the chassis "shakes" and the tail moves: I call it oversteering.

At the end of the stint you'll have grained rear tyres.

Racing rear tyre grained in the inside (bottom of the picture). Ask yourself if you're setting or asking for too much camber. Notice the graining is not continous, suggesting the car slips in heavy acceleration or lacks chassis rigidity


On the other hand, you'll see blistered tyres when it's the fault of the manufacturer OR the driver is too hard on the throttle in the exit of curves.

Blistered wet racing tyre, posted here by f1.redbaron. Too hard on the throttle, probably, or bad chosen tyres (they heat internally, because of too much flexing)

[WhiteBlue]

My opinions:

I think it was Hamilton's and his engineers fault.

Hamilton did not qualify well because of his choice of tyres.

Kovalainen is getting closer.

On the other hand, Sir Frank Williams once said that it was up to Williams to provide a winner car for Mansell, regardless of Nigel style. Let's McLaren solve this.

If I were Hamilton engineer I would advise him to try to be smoother in the entrance and breath.

Something like "remember the mantra: exhale in the entrance, when you tense your arms. Inhale on the exit, when you relax them, say ooooommmmm through the curve, be one with the car, be one... actually, Jhon Livingstone, there is no car, is you who is running over the track on your four wheels".

Choice of tyres I cannot follow you. If he ripped the harder tyre he certainly would have ripped up the softer.

I agree with the Williams/Mansell principle. It is up to Bridgestone/McLaren to provide a car/tyre combination that is fit for the way it is used by all drivers unless they abuse the tyres. Having an agressive driving style isn't really abusing, isn't it? I don't know if McLaren have set up the car in a way that it abuses the tyres. So I cannot lay all the blame on Bridgestone. but I'm not a happy bunny with the thought that it is not safe to run the most tyre demanding corner in present F1 unless you are holding your breath. It doesn't sound sensible to me. to me this looks like the same type of problem that Michelin had in Indy 2005. They brought a tyre that wasn't up to the conditions. they did not get away with it because several drivers exceeded the tolerances. Bridgestone 2006 got away with it in Turkey because only one driver had the problem and the FIA has developed a dangerous lenience towards tyre failures.

I'm not saying that it is the same technical problem. In Indy it was a resonance problem where the steel reinforced side wall of the tyre hit a natural frequency and destroyed itself.

In this case it looks like repetitive peak loads were ripping the thread off the carcasse. with these four apexes following each other in seconds the series of Hamilton's hard corrections was obviously exceeding the adhesive bonding force between the components of the tyre. polymer bonds are by nature sensitive to changes in load and time/temperature behavior.

If I were at the FIA I would be asking some hard questions to Bridgestone. Have you identified the failure mode of the 2007 tyre failure? have you done simulations for different temperature ranges and assuming higher loads due to more agressive driving and more downforce? have you incorporated a sufficient dynamic safety appropriate to the failure mechanism? Is the grooved design of the thread relevant to the failure mode?

I realy hope they ask questions and get the issue sorted out for next year. A control tyre should be safe for all driving styles even in the most demanding corner of F1. In actual fact it should be designed using such benchmark loads and with a significant safety margin on top.

[megz]

The tyre wasn't the problem, it was Hamilton and his driving style or Hamilton and his engineer not working on a suitable set-up. If Bridgestone make a new tyre to suit Hamilton then it's no longer a control tyre is it?

[mcdenife]

Fundamentally, it is the car as the problem affected both drivers but one more so that the other due to his driving style. No other car had the problem.

[WhiteBlue]

... If Bridgestone make a new tyre to suit Hamilton then it's no longer a control tyre is it?

or if the Canadian race organizers change the concrete wall hit by Kubica last year they are handing an unfair advantage to BMW?

[Ciro Pabón]

Yeah, sure, they should make a tyre for Hamilton...

Sir Frank did not mention Michelin. I guess that's, in part, why he's called a Sir. Elegance includes accepting own defects, actually laughing at them, while you learn.

Of course it's one's fault if you grain the tyres, much more if you're the only one among 22: driving it's not only to be able to take the curve without exiting the track, it's mainly to take care of your rubber.

It could happen that it's Bridgestone fault, yes, but the burden of proof rests on Hamilton. I wait for the proofs McLaren could bring on, because up to this moment there are none, they even did not protest. Take in account that McLaren analyzed together with Bridgestone last year's data before the race, or so they said.

FoxSports southamerican commentators mentioned Hamilton's qualy bad choice of tyres, several times, and I agree with them. They even predicted Hamilton would catch Massa when he did.

[WhiteBlue]

... Of course it's one's fault if you grain the tyres, much more if you're the only one among 22: driving it's not only to be able to take the curve without exiting the track, it's mainly to take care of your rubber....

There is a big difference between tyre care for performance and for safety.

If a driver grains his tyres that all others don't and looses performance that is clearly his problem.

If a driver over uses his tyres by wearing the rubber under the grooves that is also his fault.

If a driver manages to go faster than others without performance loss and excessive wear but gets a lap number limit that screws his race strategy the tyre company is at fault. they have undertaken the task to provide safe tyres to all competitors equally and have failed that task by putting McLaren and Hamilton at a disadvantage.

compare the tender document!

http://argent.fia.com/web/appeloffre.ns ... penelement

the relevant clause

7.9 All TYRES supplied under the CONTRACT must be suitable for use at all times during the EVENT. They must be suitable and safe for use without tyre warmers.

Bridgestone are granted the right to conduct tyre development test of their own decision with all five top teams. they should have applied for such a test at Istanbul in late 2007 or earlier in 2008 as soon as they knew the details of Hamilton's 2007 failure and early enough for production of the race tyres. They adressed the faulty tyre construction and made changes but they did not conduct tests to acertain they were ok.

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/200 ... -TYRES.php

We had the issue with Lewis last year at this race, brought about by turn eight specifically being anti-clockwise triple-apex with very high g-forces. He had a specific problem last year, most noticeably, but several other drivers we noticed had internal tyre problems. Based on that, we changed the construction and strengthened it over the winter period and then brought those tyres to all the races this year.

In actual fact, nobody else has had a repetition of any of those problems this year, with the exception of Lewis. He is the one driver who perhaps with his style of driving has put higher forces onto his front right tyre.

She said the problem was one of tyre construction, not the compound used

This clearly confirms that the 2007 tyres were unsafe for turn 8 at Istanbul and that the 2008 tyres were still deemed marginal for Hamilton's style. I find this unacceptable, because it means that any other driver with agressive turn in would also drive without a safety margin. If I were the responsible engineer at the FIA I would impose a test with improved tyre design at Istanbul on Bridgestone with Hamilton participating. They can do this as part of the usual testing that they typically do in Spain and let Bridgestone pay the additional transport cost.

Ciro, I accept that you may see this different and propose that we simply agree to disagree on the issue.