Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Regenerative systems

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All right, I'm back. Let's do one of our frequent back-of-the-envelope checkings. This is going to be boring because I'll write while I calculate.

First, how much is the energy we need to rotate a car, let's say, 10 degrees in 0.5 seconds? I suppose this is enough for "attitude correction".

For this estimation, let's also assume the car is an uniform prism that weighs 600 kilos and has, I don't know, 2 m of width and 3.5 meters in length. So:
  • angular velocity: (10 deg * Pi rad) / (180 deg * 0.5 sec) = 0.35 rad/seg

    moment of inertia: 1/12 * 600 kg * [(2m)^2 + (3.5m)^2)] = 813 kg-m2

    rotational energy: 1/2 * 813 * 0.35^2 kg-m2/s2 = 50 Joules
Well, I'm a little rusty, and the energy is pretty low (a mistake on my part?): it's the first time I've calculated this in years... I'm sure somebody will check.

Now, we have a flywheel that weighs 5 kilos (I assume) and a radius of, I don't know, 10 cm. How fast it has to rotate to provide the same 50 joules of rotational energy? I assume no losses here, we could factor in them later.

If the flywheel is an ideal thin cylindrical shell, then:
  • moment of inertia of flywheel: 5 kg * 0.1^2 m2 = 0.05 kg-m2

    rotational energy of flywheel: 1/2 * 0.05 kg-m2 * w^2 = 50 kg-m2/s2
So, the angular velocity needed to get the same 50 joules is:
  • w = (2 * 50 / 0.05)^ 0.5 rad/seg = 44 rad/seg
    w = 44 rad/seg * (1 revolution / 2 * Pi rad) * (60 sec/1 minute) = 420 rpm
A change in rotational speed of 420 rpm in the flywheel is enough to move the car 10 degrees.

My largest "mistake", which I made on purpose, comes from the fact that I assumed a car with no friction with the ground. If the calculations are OK, they are true only for a car "on ice".

I'll tackle friction of wheels and track tomorrow: it's a holiday.

First conclusion: for "cars on ice", the change in flywheel rotation is pretty low, as is the energy needed. If we're talking of "damping" the movements of the car on the suspension, that is, without moving laterally the wheels, only to "help" the shock adsorbers the same way Renault mass damper worked, the idea is not only feasible, but also practical.

So, it's practical to use a flywheel to correct attitude for aerodynamic lateral sensibility (if you assume displacements of the same magnitude of the suspension travel).

Yes, yes, I know I did not took in account the energy spent on compressing the springs, but probably (not sure here) the spring is helping the flywheel, not opposing it.

So, at first sight we need a new regulation (like the Renault damper ruling) or some teams could use this trick (if I'm not totally wrong for reasons I still don't comprehend).

Well, you guys, I'd would be extremely grateful if someone (Miguel, CMSMJ1, where are you?) could check this first attempt. I'm sure this post is not going to be one of the most read here (it's boring as hell), but it was fun to write.
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Ciro, your figuring remains fairly theoretical unless you explain how a change of energy of the fly wheel is supposed to be done within the limitations of the regs.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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WhiteBlue wrote:Ciro, your figuring remains fairly theoretical unless you explain how a change of energy of the fly wheel is supposed to be done within the limitations of the regs.
So two or more

flywheels, between which the kinetic energy can be transferred, cannot be argued as being a "single KERS" in its entirety within the rules?
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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Ciro Pabón
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WhiteBlue wrote:Ciro, your figuring remains fairly theoretical unless you explain how a change of energy of the fly wheel is supposed to be done within the limitations of the regs.
C'mon, WhiteBlue, we're talking of 50 joules. Even a resistor can adsorb this energy and dissipate it as heat, when you need to "brake" the flywheel.

Conversely, to accelerate the flywheel you need a ridiculous low amount of energy to be stored before being fed into the flywheel. Any electric circuit could handle this charge in a capacitor bank or a battery, unless I'm pretty much mistaken.

Actually, you could extract or put that amount of energy directly into the car wheels, as you suggested, and the car would barely break or accelerate. The point of the whole exercise was to find out that.

For example, if you need a 25.000 rpm change in flywheel rotational speed, instead of the miserable 420 rpm I got, your objection would be unsurmountable, but, in view of the results, I think it's not. The fact is that I showed that the energy needed to rotate the car (under the assumptions I made and if I made no mistakes) is a tiny fraction of the energy you need to accelerate it.

Good point, Conceptual. Actually, the only way to avoid the rotational inertia of the flywheel to "interfere" with the car would be an array of two counter rotating flywheels.
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems

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checkered wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Ciro, your figuring remains fairly theoretical unless you explain how a change of energy of the fly wheel is supposed to be done within the limitations of the regs.
So two or more

flywheels, between which the kinetic energy can be transferred, cannot be argued as being a "single KERS" in its entirety within the rules?
there are some substantial points against such a concept with at least two wheels and two transmissions. it would be heavy, it would be bulky and we would still not have any idea how the transfer of energy would be done between the wheels. would it use a third IVT?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Ciro Pabón wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Ciro, your figuring remains fairly theoretical unless you explain how a change of energy of the fly wheel is supposed to be done within the limitations of the regs.
C'mon, WhiteBlue, we're talking of 50 joules. Even a resistor can adsorb this energy and dissipate it as heat, when you need to "brake" the flywheel.

Conversely, to accelerate the flywheel you need a ridiculous low amount of energy to be stored before being fed into the flywheel. Any electric circuit could handle this charge in a capacitor bank or a battery, unless I'm pretty much mistaken.

Actually, you could extract or put that amount of energy directly into the car wheels, as you suggested, and the car would barely break or accelerate. The point of the whole exercise was to find out that.

Good point, Conceptual. Actually, the only way to avoid the rotational inertia of the flywheel to "interfere" with the car would be an array of two counter rotating flywheels.
the point of using a capacitor is inconsistent with the idea of a mechanical storage device. you would have to have a motor/generator and a transmission to accomplish energy transfers to an electrical system however tiny.

so I'm to be the advocatus diaboli? :D I'll play along for the moment.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Well, thanks.

BTW, I think a better name would be "peer reviewer". It's better to be a Peer than a Lawyer. :)
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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don't forget to figure in the tyre friction as you have already said you would. with a quarter ton of downforce on every wheel you will find that some considerable lateral forces are at work in the tyres. the teams would not generate all that downforce if they would not need it for cornering. what I still cannot see in your model is how you will overcome the lateral acceleration. the car wants to go strait and it isn sufficient to just point it in the right direction for turn in. you still have to provide a cornering force throughout the whole corner. how is a bit of momentum around the vertical axis going to help overcome the lateral force? are we looking at the wrong thing here? lets say your gyro will turn the car so that it points in the right direction. that will not keep the car on the ground if the lateral, centrifugal force isn't countered. the car will leave the track not nose first but radiator first. what happens when drivers complain about understeer is a lack of lateral force at the front. by the same token oversteer is too much lateral force due to too much downforce at the front and too little at the rear. I suspect we are looking at the wrong issue.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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Not really a technical

article as such, but will perhaps serve a purpose later on as we reflect on how we dealt with the efficiency drive: Why testing at Paul Ricard is really not important (grandprix.com). We're moving from grudging acceptance and half measures towards trying to retake the initiative, hopefully. There has been a quiet recognition of the task ahead among many, but increasingly, the prospects and concerns are being spelled out vocally.

Gradually, we'll get our heads around this, hopefully managing to deflect further empty promises, useless conflicts and cynical profiteering in the process. Gloomy doomsayers will also continue to have a heyday with the energy shift, as will all kinds of people convinced of the superiority of their particular philosophy of a good life. Like crowding all the populace of the Earth into hamlets to cultivate their own food, because that's "green". Well, a certain chairman Mao did send droves of university type city dwellers into communes during the "cultural revolution" so (un)fortunately we have a precedent ...

It has to be remembered that fun and play are some of the greatest motivators, especially against defeatist catastrophe enthusiasts dwelling on humanity's low points. Even animals play, and learn through play. It was only recently that adults came to appear "serious" through ceasing to openly display playfulness, in everyday life or upon notable occasions. In this sense, people in F1 and also many F1 enthusiasts are privileged. We liberate our imaginations through play. Apart from doing our part with the technological challenge, we can carry on the spirit, a truly sustainable value if there ever was one.

It just occurred to me that it might be necessary to point this out explicitly, even if it's strictly speaking off topic as such.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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It would be nice if those that have put their head in the sand for many years would acknoledge that the world needs more efficient use of fossile energy.

Fuel cells will not save us if we do not find a new way to produce electric energy in the first place. the same goes for hydrogen. there are only two ways to grab energy on our planet.

one is to tap into depots build up by the ecology in historic past. we call that fossile energy.

the other way is to utilize what the sun is showering down on us all the time. we still have tremendous fossile energies to help us make the transition to an eventually steady state economy of mainly using what the sun provides.

first we need to focus our inventiveness and ingenuity on better use of the fossile energy by generally increasing the thermal efficiency of every process that burns fossile fuel.

second we need to look into ways to use biological processes to effectively build chemically stored energy for transportation and chemical production in the future. bio processes based on algae are probably the most effective way to do that without damaging food supplies, destroying soil, drinking water reserves and eco systems.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

mx_tifoso
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Re: Regenerative systems

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checkered wrote:Not really a technical

article as such, but will perhaps serve a purpose later on as we reflect on how we dealt with the efficiency drive: Why testing at Paul Ricard is really not important (grandprix.com). We're moving from grudging acceptance and half measures towards trying to retake the initiative, hopefully. There has been a quiet recognition of the task ahead among many, but increasingly, the prospects and concerns are being spelled out vocally.
The article states at the end that if the Formula One cars running at Paul Ricard included KERS, the test would be important, otherwise it is not. Well, KERS in my opinion is a good idea (although I sometimes disagree with it, for personal and emotional reasons I guess), but it does not aid in the reduction of fuel consumption, but only to increase output for a given time during each lap. If used in motorsport, shouldn't ERS be used to reduce the use of fuel consumption? Fuel consumption and the environmental consequences from it are the issues needing to be addresed in our present state. KERS will most likely aid in further developing and then transferring the said technology to more road going cars, but in motorsport it should not be used solely for the purpose of increasing output to the driven wheels. If ERS is going to be used in Formula One, use it for a reason that really affects our environment; decreasing our dependancy on fossil fuels and increasing technology that promotes renewable energy. These written thoughts are based on my understanding that KERS will mainly be incorporated for an increase in output, not for a significant way to reduce fuel consumption in all competing Formula One cars starting in 2009 (with the current NA 2.4 V8).

By the way, the article above is a really good piece. I skipped it the first time reading the new posts in this thread, but then came back and read it, now I am grateful that I did. I recommend doing the same if you have not done so yet. Thank you 'checkered'.
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rodders47
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Hi Everyone,

I am no technical guru at all but I thought that Maybe the use of the refrigerant gas as used in air conditioners, passed through the brake calipers / disks could be used. The resultant high temperature gas could be used to "Boil Water" produce Steam and drive a turbine :D


Now who would have thought of a steam driven F1 car :roll: :roll:
1/5th R/C car racing.. as good as it gets without the mega bucks

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WhiteBlue
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welcome rodders 47. Such heat regeneration systems (HERS) with organic fluids have been discussed here. It is more interesting to convert kinetic energy to electric energy directly though. Extracting heat energy would make more sense at the exhaust and the radiators. for such applications organic media direct steam (rankine cycle) have been discussed. for expanders piston and twin screw machines appear more usefull than turbines.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Welcome, Rodders47. I think it's a good idea, it's just that it seems hard to implement, the same way it's hard to implement electric motors or flywheels in front tyres: too much weight on the un-suspended portions of the car. But, hey, what do we know? The flow of energy is comparable to the one we have in exhausts, I believe.
WhiteBlue wrote:... there are only two ways to grab energy on our planet.

one is to tap into depots build up by the ecology in historic past. we call that fossile energy.

the other way is to utilize what the sun is showering down on us all the time...
First, I would like to point out something I find beautiful: even fossil energy is sun energy. When you burn a log or coal in your chimney or you pump gas in your car, you're using stored sun energy. So, the chimney is just freeing an "old ray of sun" into you. I love that concept and I find it "very poetic"... :oops:

Now, about WhiteBlue comment, there are two additional ways to get energy:

Third, nuclear fission, that is, conventional nuclear reactors, that use "fossil" energy from other stars. You can calculate that if the ratio of U-235 to U-238 in a supernova is 1.65 (a reasonable value), most of the uranium on Earth was created by a single supernova, some 6.5 billion of years ago, although is more probable that it was created by several of them, ranging from 6 billion to 200 million years ago, or so I've read.

There is also a fourth, much more promessing idea: nuclear fusion. In essence, you want to create a small sun on Earth. I've been reading about it since the Tokamak design was made a reality in the 70's.

Nowadays, we have two devices that could be (I'm sure they will be) the solution to our predicament:

- HIPER, a laser inertial confinement device. It works by firing lasers (the rows of green and blue tubes, to the left) into small pellets of hydrogen fuel (contained into the sphere to the right). The device heats the pellets so rapidly that they don't have the time to explode before fision occurs.

It's like creating miniature suns (5 cm or so across) that glow briefly before they extinguish.

Recently (2006) a technique was developed to use much more efficient lasers, which means that the amount of energy input is favorable when compared with the energy output. Construction will start around 2010.

HIPER, laser fusion device
Image

- ITER, a tokamak device. It works by confining plasma using magnetic fields. Tokamaks have become energy efficient with recent advances in the understanding of the Z-Pinch, a way to confine the plasma so it doesn't touch the walls of the reactor. Plasma, to ignite like the sun, must be at 10 million degrees of temperature and it cools rapidly, so if it touches the walls, the reaction stops.

It's like suspending a small sun (some meters across) in a magnetic field.

Construction of ITER started this year at Candarache, France, and the device will be online in 2011. Btw, Candarache is about 100 km west of Monaco... :)

DEMO, a more powerful power generator is proposed to start construction in 2010. ITER should provide 10 times the energy input, DEMO should provide 25 times the input. DEMO should provide 2 Gwatts, comparable with conventional power plants.

JET core (Joint European Torus, predecessor of ITER). To the right, an image of the plasma is superimposed on the photo (the purple glow is the plasma)
Image

Before WhiteBlue says so, yes, it's true these are proposed devices, not real working things, but I'm pretty confident that, after 30 years of continous development, the figures expected for the energy "yield" of these devices are right. We will see a profound change in energy generation before 2020 and (I hope) newspapers headlines about the success of these techniques in 2012.

Tokamaks can have another grave issue: the tritium you need as fuel has to be produced by conventional nuclear reactors, with the contamination of radioactive byproducts they represent. I hope that clever designs proposed for tokamaks can produce the tritium they need from their own nuclear reactions without the need for fission reactors to be employed as fuel sources, something like the breeder reactors of today.

All we lack is not a way to produce electric energy, but to store it. Batteries were invented more than 2 centuries ago and their energy storage density is ridiculously low.

So, F1 engines in 2020 could look like this: :)

Emmet Brown and Marty McFly's flux capacitor
Image

Of course, that's a joke, because what we should expect is electric cars, driven by nano-capacitors (if they improve their energy density 100 times or so) or fuel cells (fueled by hydrogen produced through electricity).

We've talked about the profound changes in racing that electric motor-driven cars would represent: viewtopic.php?t=2599

Some pictures and quotes from that link:

Atom X1 beating a Porsche Carrera
Image

Comment by the Porsche driver: "It never occurred to me that I would lose," says Kim Stuart, the Porsche's driver. "It was like a light switch. He hit the pedal and was gone."

Atom electronics: total control of traction (no need for traction control at all, it's done through regulation of engine)
Image

The engine that beat a Porsche
Image

That's the future (at least for me), not the pathetic attempts at KERS that FIA is making, as mx_tifosi, WhiteBlue, Miguel and others point out.
Ciro

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checkered
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rodders47 wrote:Hi Everyone,

I am no technical guru at all but I thought that Maybe the use of the refrigerant gas as used in air conditioners, passed through the brake calipers / disks could be used. The resultant high temperature gas could be used to "Boil Water" produce Steam and drive a turbine :D

Now who would have thought of a steam driven F1 car :roll: :roll:
Hi rodders47, there certainly is

a thermodynamic logic to your thinking which I like. Starting Kinetic Energy Recovery System off on a path that is configurable, from the very beginning, with Heat Energy Recovery (it is being proposed to be introduced only slightly later on than KERS) can be a very, very wise and forward-looking thing to do. Weight savings in integration and simplicity, higher overall efficiency, much more time for optimising of the cycles and designs, that sorta thing. Plus I'm something of a turbine buff, so I'm just happy to see other people exploring the use of those as well. That can also make me somewhat biased as well, so as to make that clear.

I wouldn't put it past a host of teams considering something that is (basically) the same kind of an idea that you've envisioned (there'd be quite a number of ways beyond yours to physically arrange for something like this, while the basic elemental ideas remain). While some outfits seem to move along a chosen path with KERS already - as Honda apparently is with their Flybrid/Torotrak arrangement - others like Toyota are said to be considering between something like 25 different approaches, no less. The situation is (I hope you'll allow the pun) fluid and steaming in other ways as well, the manufacturers rebuffing Mosley's abrupt invite during the Monaco weekend to discuss the merits of shortening the engine freeze by two years.

Autosport.com and Grandprix.com had quite different takes on the matter. While some of it inevitably was down to the sorry state of current F1 politicking, the intriguing part is that the manufacturers' response left ample room for a significant development in drivetrain technology having appeared closer to the horizon than previously thought. Again, a system that'd achieve such a rapid shift before 2013 might well prove to to have some relation to ideas such as yours. The totality of a phase cyclical system in a viable form, for example, need not conform with the current F1 layout. Some components will inevitably be completely novel and their distribution completely different to a traditional disk brake system.

The already evident economic experiences of locales and countries reaping the benefits of breaking the dependency of energy cycles to carbon is surely behind any future drive. It just makes a World of economic sense. Of what I stated above, it should be remembered that a strict differentiation between developments within and without F1 rules is imperative. I didn't make a good job of it here, but as a rule of thumb, regulation is reactive and in a venture like F1 it remains wholly subordinate to the World at large. For the two to be nothing but "joined at the hip" would be a tragic brake in an intrinsic tradition.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra