Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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gcdugas
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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DaveKillens wrote:My Scrivener may be a QC, but I never trust anyone who is a member of an organization who says they are conducting an impartial "Internal" investigation. Mr Scrivner gets his cheques from the FIA, and currently, Max still controls that body. And the only conclusion he can reach is whether this NoTW information is presentable to the FIA. If he says it's OK, then nothing has changed. But if he says it's inadmissable, then Max is in the position of defending himself against inadmissable evidence. It's a win-win situation for Max.
Max couldn't get the British courts to ban the video. Then he went to the French and failed in a similar attempt. Now, Max is trying to raise some method where the NoTW video cannot be used against Max in the big FIA hearing.

Even I am not quite this cynical. Suppose some anti-Max factions, or some ambivalent FIA senate members wanted to know the validity of the Nazi claim. How would they seek the certainty or truth of the matter?

And as I said above, it is moot. Nazi or no Nazi, there is too much heat from sponsors, CVC, Bernie (no doubt reading the tea leaves), 7 out of 10 teams (8 if you count Williams), heads of state and other interests. Nike is looking to bail on Ronaldo for the remainder of their $100M commitment. How many F1 sponsors might also look to bail on their $$$ commitments to their respective teams? Especially in today's tough financial climate with internal pressure from bean counters, all a fence sitting CFO has to hear is a slight provocation and he is heading for the door. It is this that I believe has caused Bernie to abandon his buddy Max to the dogs.

Just for kicks, suppose Max were to win a monster settlement of $100 Billion (with a "B") and Rupert Murdoch had to grovel before him kissing Max's feet, furthermore suppose this happened tomorrow... so what. Max would still be viewed as unfit for duty by the aforementioned F1 power brokers. All the $$$ and court decisions in the world can't unscramble an egg. The video is out and that is all that matters to them.

Ironically, this announcement only keeps the whole scandal in the press all the more and that is the last thing that Bernie wants to see.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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DaveKillens wrote:My Scrivener may be a QC, but I never trust anyone who is a member of an organization who says they are conducting an impartial "Internal" investigation. Mr Scrivner gets his cheques from the FIA, and currently, Max still controls that body. And the only conclusion he can reach is whether this NoTW information is presentable to the FIA. If he says it's OK, then nothing has changed. But if he says it's inadmissable, then Max is in the position of defending himself against inadmissable evidence. It's a win-win situation for Max.
Max couldn't get the British courts to ban the video. Then he went to the French and failed in a similar attempt. Now, Max is trying to raise some method where the NoTW video cannot be used against Max in the big FIA hearing.
I'm would think that Mr. Scrivener occasionally acts as a member of the FIA appeal court. That surely will not produce a substantial part of his income. it is probably just an honorable position with expense compensation if at all.

I also think that his brief is to check the evidence from NOTW against their claims and not to check for admissibility to the EGA procedings. I understand that NOTW will disseminate their "evidence" to all participants of the EGA anyway.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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gcdugas
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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WhiteBlue wrote: well, I would say that being accused of "weaselly ways" is a pretty detrimental personal remark! I do not appreciate such labels. I rather like a debate which is focused on issues and not so much on the person who makes certain points or posts an opinion. this forum should be informative, and a platform for knowledge and opinions which can be shared or ignored as the posters and readers see fit. personal remarks aren't helpfull towards that objective in my view.
Are you implying that I am being rash, inflammatory or judgmental? That is a personal attack and a characterization. But I am not going to take it personally because it doesn't matter and it doesn't address the thread topic.

A weaselly way is a weaselly way. You evaded my question on the application of your declared principle. I just want you to apply your own principle consistently. Why can't you just say.... "Yes, according to my understanding of the FIA statutes, Max would remain, and is unable to be removed, for the period of two months (or whatever) even if he were a child molester murdering lunatic Nazi. For that period he will remain no matter what he is guilty of or how ignominious he is. We have to accept that and learn to live with it." Reluctance to say this is reluctance to be consistent with your stated principle. Such reluctance is also evasion and evasion is "weaselly". Its a characterization. Don't be so sensitive.

But this is "the issue". Is Max further abusing his office buying time to arm twist and lobby? Are the rest of the FIA office holders and representatives powerless to remove a recalcitrant President for a statutory period of time? And what if Max hadn't called for the "Extraordinary Assembly"? When would the statutory clock start ticking? Is such an "Extraordinary Assembly" necessary to conduct business, or business of this importance?

And then there are issues that extend beyond the FIA proper and to the sport itself. There are business issues. There are issues as to Max's continued harm to the image of the FIA, to F1, to WRC and beyond.

Don't take it personally. I just want you to be consistent with your stated principle or perhaps reconsider your position. If you feel "pressure" to evade (weasel out), then perhaps it comes from trying to maintain an untenable position. Remember, you can always just say.... "Yes, as I understand it, the FIA is powerless to remove Max for a statutory period, as much as you, me, Bernie or any may dislike it, that is our predicament." I would respect such an answer as at least being consistent with itself.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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gcdugas, why don't we just can it? I've made my point and so have you. I will say what I think is right and will not be pulled into arguments that are pointless to me. Haven't you realised that billions of people exist in the wide world connected by the www with vastly different outlooks on life? you can't convert them all to your particular point of view. so why don't you make a start with me and let me have my way? I let you have yours and if we disagree on an issue that is exhausted we can simply give these issues a rest. 8) 8) 8)

PS: I think there is no shortage of posted opinion from me on this board. Just re read the thread and most of your questions from above will be suitably answered.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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gcdugas wrote:Emotion? Really? Can one not comment on the divine irony of Max having his own abuses come home to revisit him. Taken in context with his hypocritical complaining about "illicitly obtained" evidence, when Max himself casually dismissed such concerns in legal proceedings he chaired, and in context with the numerous abuses of office, it seems rather "fitting". Now one can take pleasure in that forgetting that he too is flesh and blood or one can look at it and shudder lest his private transgressions be visited with the same Providence. But I would not call it emotional. - gcdugas
Emotion is an essential

part of the impression left on me by much of your contribution on this matter - it is an integral part of denoting and connoting the turn of phrase, vocabulary, imagery, persistence, the entirety of the effort and whatnot of the author. This is not a value judgement on my part as I'm firmly of the mind that all manifestations of the human consciousness are indeed equal in every sense of the word. I certainly take appreciative enjoyment in the many patterns weaved into the cloth of your thought, emotion (like pleasure) being but one.

The thing is, however, that I didn't use that particular word - emotion - in relation to your thought (or as a direct reference to mine) but to the thought of the object of your attention, Max Mosley. Obviously I'm not an expert in what makes him tick (and he has even professed to getting some enjoyment in reading the handiwork of his many detractors online) but it is not inconceivable that portraying an event about to befall someone in the most dire and disconcerting fashion will make him resist it that much harder.

So pragmatically speaking, there's an ever so slight chance that portrayals echoing doom, perpetual ignominy or indeed a sort of a fire & brimstone Divine justice are in fact contarary to (what I took as) your primary objective, namely expediating the removal of Mr. Mosley from office. My avoidance of making a direct reference to this effect followed this logic in recognising that, ironically, spelling it out would change the dynamics of the situation once more ...

... Mostly underlining the surreal dimension of my continued effort in displaying what is a vanishingly vague rationale in expanding on this, really. But since mute points aren't celebrated all that often, I'll throw caution to the wind and let this all but self-defeating reasoning fly anyway. Monty Python should rest easy, all is not lost. I probably also underestimate the range of effects severe tongue-lashings may have on the more or less unwitting recipients, which could be yet more cause for concern to the dispensers of said verbalistics rather than myself.

OK, ignore the convoluted attempt at humour there, the first two (and a half) paragraphs are actually written in all sincerity, just for the record. The rest was borne out of aimless boredom.

Coming back to the issues, if I can. I gather the context you refer to here is mainly the so called "spy case". In fact at some point I remarked that there were "karmic comeuppances" still on the way for those involved. I certainly didn't think in terms of an S/M related affair and still caution against drawing any direct parallels between the two, despite murmurs to the contrary. Even more so since those noises seem to have emanated from what is believed to be "Max's camp", whatever that may signify. Not to mention Dennis's boisterous denial.

Furthermore I must point out that FIA's "International Court of Appeal" (and professional practitioners of law are welcome to help me out here or set the record straight), despite its imposing name is nothing more than a voluntary framework. The teams are signatories to an agreement in which they relinguish ultimate power in sporting matters to the ICA should they wish to race in F1. In this regard their legal standing and adherence to due process, compared to state (or internationally) sanctioned courts, isn't any different from, say, taking a piss.

Morally, it is another thing as to what effect Mosley employed ICA's status in said situation but I trust McLaren's representation did their best to challenge any procedurel errors nonetheless. Besides, I can't quite remember what the problem with Polizia Postale delivering its findings to the proceedings was. Certainly by that time the content of some incriminating emails had already been volunteered. Twice in fact, first unofficially to Ecclestone and again by request to Mosley in exchange for escaping otherwise collective sanctions.

So, continuing on the theme, if one holds that Mr. Mosley misused his powers in this and other matters in a consistent fashion I guess it represents some sort of proverbial "Hammurabic (in?)justice" if his tenure ends "equally unfairly". This attitude, I gather, will yet further complicate the effort of getting him to vacate his office without more unnecessary ado. And since when did one injustice undo another? Under Mosley's watch?

No, if the above paragraph applies (and equally if it doesn't), isn't it more "fitting" that he be challenged fairly, head on and overtly, with all the force of undeniable causality? Again, it is not all about the current president, but the future of FIA, much of motorsport and many motorists. But perhaps it's just as well. I shan't lose track of those, you won't lose track of Max Mosley - it's an arrangement that agrees with me just fine.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20320.html
over at GP.com there is speculation that Francois Fillon may have a go at the FIA presidency. I wonder how such a move will be seen in the US and the UK. I must say that I would be surprised if the French club will put such a public figure forward for a contentious thing as governing motor sport. but hey who am I. lets see if some campain of sorts emerges.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20353.html

a worthwhile read. Slowly people reporting on the sport are getting their head focused on the important things. Obviously the teams and the clubs have the power to create a new governing body. This is not even necessary to implement. the threat could be enough to re-negotiate the F1 deal. I personally do not like the idea of separation of sporting and touring clubs because the important clubs with large membership can provide a democratic balance to any old boys network. for this to work there must be a fair representation of the membership. clubs should have fees and votes according to their membership.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 401883.stm

Ron Dennis gets an apollogy at last..
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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that is a funny story. McLaren publish that Novak apologised to them for McLaren misunderstanding his remarks? Novak said that McLaren could potentially have been behind setting up Mosley. hey, the pope could have been behind it. then they make a big ballyhoo and he says that he doesn't believe the possibility reflects what actually happened. He gets a lot of publicity out of that dodgy statement and McLaren are in the press for all the wrong reasons. not a clever way to handle public relations.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

mcdenife
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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you mean for his insinuations
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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Mr Novak has apologised for the misunderstanding and McLaren and Mr Dennis have thanked him for this gracious and swift reaction.
So Novak apologised for McLaren misunderstanding him, or is there anything that Ron said that Mr. Novak misunderstood?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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gcdugas
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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Monaco royalty snubs Mosley as I predicted. Here comes the rest of my predictions... protesters in S & M gear, special update issue from NotW with the actual costumes on display etc. Look for Bernie to do anything to prevent Max from appearing.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20360.html

Mosley hints at Ecclestone behind the trap scheme. Ciro must have been behind a door. :wink:

The conflict is about the remaining rights of the FIA which Ecclestone wants to take away. I think either Bernie is having a megalomaniac attack or Mosley is telling a story. who wants Bernie to have unlimited power to cancel traditional races, do further financial manipulations or make all the rules himself?

This will be an interesting decision for the membership. and we do not know who is Bernie's candidate this time. What has been discussed at the Toyota motor home and on Mallya jacht? why can't Ciro not listen on the door again.

If Ecclestone takes total control of F1 via a new stooge nothing can be worse. I can see his scheme quite clearly. first F1 would be in terrible trouble. CVC would exit cutting their losses and Ecclestone would bring in a new ownership increasing his share without investment in a mysterious way.

as soon as he is in control of some big piece of equity he would radically push the value of F1 again by getting rid of all low paying races in Europe. I'm sure he would also find a way to make instant enhancements to the drama on track like weight penalties that would enable him to manipulate the show. and finally he would sell the blkoody shebang for the umptiest time.

how about this as a scenario versus having the sex maniac? :wink:
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 16 May 2008, 23:28, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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I hope they'll

publish the entire letter as well. Mosley: FIA risks losing control of F1 That is not to say I'd take the contents at face value, nor anything that Ecclestone has to say to the media. For all we know they could still be in this together, pushing another common agenda expediated by unforeseen events ... these "100 year contracts" are peculiar in the way that they're nothing of the kind, continually renegotiated as the parties see fit. But yes, it looks mostly like a shot accross the bow from Mosley, a: "Sure you want me to go on any further?" kinda deal.

As to Mosley's negotiating credentials, the original (reportedly) $315M deal turned out to be nothing to cheer for compared to the income generated ("bargain of a century", I've seen it characterised) - and some commentators have ventured as far as to give the impression that this original CRH was the main reason Ecclestone backed Max for the job. So since there's an impression with some that Bernie "appoints" presidents to get what he wants, Mosley is warning the FIA of a similar orchestration that apparently brought himself to power! "Don't do as I do, do as I say"? There's an irony to that, wouldn't you say?

So, in this supposed plot to wrestle the FIA out of F1 with a contract that'd have to basically state the two have nothing to do with each other (something of a contradiction in terms), there's supposedly a willing buyer involved? Manufacturers, big oil? Anyway, should Mr. Mosley care for the FIA more than his own presidency thereof, he should be hard at work educating key people of the details and backround of the current situation - as an absolute priority. That he hasn't informed his organisation of these vital factors yet is in itself a gargantuan omission of his duties, one which he now himself states contributes to the risk of the FIA losing control over motoring and motorsports.

Isn't he basically equating himself with the FIA? F1 need not suffer the consequences of a couple of aging men in a turf battle, to be frank. I'd say to the clubs that make up FIA that they need to get organised themselves, go to the manufacturers and privateers (also potential ones) and for once do something on their own accord. Frankly I don't even care anymore if the sport is called Formula One, as long as it carries the tradition and accommodates the future. Mosley and Ecclestone can do all the bilateral agreements their hearts desire, the rest of us need not be involved.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

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checkered wrote:I hope they'll

publish the entire letter as well. Mosley: FIA risks losing control of F1 That is not to say I'd take the contents at face value, nor anything that Ecclestone has to say to the media. ...
=D> =D> =D> yes it is anoying that the media have the letter and do not publish it entirely.

Mosley has been mum about the parties who trapped him and that has been surprising. He now identifies the CRH (commercial rights holder) Ecclestone as the driving force behind the scandal. It is pretty clear why he has behaved in this strange way. He does not want Ecclestone to enjoy success for his little scheme. I must say that I agree with most of the ideas that have been brought into F1 in the last two years by Mosley.

majority voting is good (adressing the aero issue finally)
greener racing technology is good
allowing new competitors on smaller budgets is good

All that Ecclestone is interested in is his personal power and making more money. If it comes to a choice between the old stooge who has started to rebel against his puppeteer and a new one who will renew the Ecclestone death grip on F1 I rather see the sex maniac in office one more year. perhaps we would get a clean election process for a decent replacement next year.

right now the clubs don't seem to have any idea who is supposed to take over. there is no open and public campaign by suitable replacement candidates. in the confusion of Max demise Bernie could install his new stooge and we would be infinitely worse off. I see a situation of a lesser evil looming over the EGA.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)