2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[johnny comelately]

Another question, which probably sounds ridiculous, but do they have a throttle butterfly (or similar) and where is it situated in a 1D kinda way?

[godlameroso]

We talked about this but never got anywhere. There was talk about being unthrottled and using AFR and MGU-H as a makeshift throttle. There was also talk of a variable geometry compressor that could essentially work as a throttle(the rules only prohibit variable geometry turbines).

[johnny comelately]

According to Mercedes there's the equivalent of 4 average elephants pressing down on each piston, don't know how many elephants they've added since 2016 though.

No one that knows will say, and all we have to go on is estimates.

As far as I can tell for the Mercedes engine(the current benchmark)
1.) 800+ hp from the ICE
2.) 52MJ/kg
3.) I remember saying combustion temperatures can be as high as 2400K so somewhere around 6% oxygen in the exhaust.
4.) Boost ~5bar absolute, Compression 16:1 +-2 points, cylinder pressure ~440bar
5.) no clue.

It was claimed on several occasions that the cylinder pressure exceeds 440 bar. I assure you that no aluminium piston can see 300 bar regularly and last for as long as these engines are meant to last. Maybe they can get 400+bar with occasional knock.

I just want to clarify that the pressures there are peak cylinder pressures or BMEP?
I know this sounds vague but it is important when there is so little info around

[johnny comelately]

According to Mercedes there's the equivalent of 4 average elephants pressing down on each piston, don't know how many elephants they've added since 2016 though.

No one that knows will say, and all we have to go on is estimates.

As far as I can tell for the Mercedes engine(the current benchmark)
1.) 800+ hp from the ICE
2.) 52MJ/kg
3.) I remember saying combustion temperatures can be as high as 2400K so somewhere around 6% oxygen in the exhaust.
4.) Boost ~5bar absolute, Compression 16:1 +-2 points, cylinder pressure ~440bar
5.) no clue.

Hello Miami, wouldn't mind looking at the article (I guess it is) re the Mercedes elephants, would you have a link please . Serious request by the way, I could imagine someone pulling your leg.

[hurril]

According to Mercedes there's the equivalent of 4 average elephants pressing down on each piston, don't know how many elephants they've added since 2016 though.

No one that knows will say, and all we have to go on is estimates.

As far as I can tell for the Mercedes engine(the current benchmark)
1.) 800+ hp from the ICE
2.) 52MJ/kg
3.) I remember saying combustion temperatures can be as high as 2400K so somewhere around 6% oxygen in the exhaust.
4.) Boost ~5bar absolute, Compression 16:1 +-2 points, cylinder pressure ~440bar
5.) no clue.

Hello Miami, wouldn't mind looking at the article (I guess it is) re the Mercedes elephants, would you have a link please . Serious request by the way, I could imagine someone pulling your leg.

The elephant thing is from AMG F1:s YouTube account from 2015 or 2016, can't quite remember.

This video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx4HMSNx_MY

[63l8qrrfy6]

According to Mercedes there's the equivalent of 4 average elephants pressing down on each piston, don't know how many elephants they've added since 2016 though.

No one that knows will say, and all we have to go on is estimates.

As far as I can tell for the Mercedes engine(the current benchmark)
1.) 800+ hp from the ICE
2.) 52MJ/kg
3.) I remember saying combustion temperatures can be as high as 2400K so somewhere around 6% oxygen in the exhaust.
4.) Boost ~5bar absolute, Compression 16:1 +-2 points, cylinder pressure ~440bar
5.) no clue.

It was claimed on several occasions that the cylinder pressure exceeds 440 bar. I assure you that no aluminium piston can see 300 bar regularly and last for as long as these engines are meant to last. Maybe they can get 400+bar with occasional knock.

I just want to clarify that the pressures there are peak cylinder pressures or BMEP?
I know this sounds vague but it is important when there is so little info around

We are talking about peak cylinder pressures since these are what fail pistons (besides inertial loads).
BMEP is not a "real" cylinder pressure, just like mean piston speed is not a real piston speed. It is a derived quantity used as a displacement normalized performance indicator and can be seen as average cylinder pressure over a cycle.

BMEP will always be just a fraction of PCP, however the two are related.

[63l8qrrfy6]

According to Mercedes there's the equivalent of 4 average elephants pressing down on each piston, don't know how many elephants they've added since 2016 though.

No one that knows will say, and all we have to go on is estimates.

As far as I can tell for the Mercedes engine(the current benchmark)
1.) 800+ hp from the ICE
2.) 52MJ/kg
3.) I remember saying combustion temperatures can be as high as 2400K so somewhere around 6% oxygen in the exhaust.
4.) Boost ~5bar absolute, Compression 16:1 +-2 points, cylinder pressure ~440bar
5.) no clue.

It was claimed on several occasions that the cylinder pressure exceeds 440 bar. I assure you that no aluminium piston can see 300 bar regularly and last for as long as these engines are meant to last. Maybe they can get 400+bar with occasional knock.

That's what I'm thinking, that they actually allow some detonation to happen. That engine life is determined by how many detonation events have occurred.

Yes, I remember someone else suggesting this too and it does sound plausible. There was much talk in the media about in cylinder pressure sensors (I think Ilien said something about this too) which would tie in with that.

[godlameroso]

I was waaaaay off. 3100K is apparently the combustion temperatures, that's an insane amount of NOx, and a host of other things.

[Tommy Cookers]

this is presumably an exothermic reaction
so the air's nitrogen is acting as a fuel ? but (like 'oil') is somehow not subject to the 100 kg limit ?

before then there's the matter of dissociation and reassociation of CO2 to CO and back
and the dissociation and reassociation of water vapour to hydrogen and back

and in the rich mixture of the TJ there's some reduction of liquid fuel to methane

[trinidefender]

Is there still a question about throttling pre-compressor? In my head, it had to be done for the entire PU to run. Let's look at the sequence of events to explain what I'm thinking.

Every compressor has an associated compressor map that shows the surge line. I assume that it's fairly understood that the MGU-H spools the turbocharger before the accelerator is applied to avoid lag and an unpredictable throttle response. However if it is spooled too much with a low air mass (compressor spinning at a high rpm with no airflow through the engine) then a surge condition WILL occur. The PU manufacturers have to prevent this and really the only way is by throttling the compressor by some method



The only caveat is that I'm thinking the throttling is most likely done with variable inlet guide vanes. The other options being a sort of variable bleed valve (what I believe Honda tried to run the very first year if my memory is picturing the right thing) or a conventional butterfly (unlikely considering we have seen up to a blanking plate in front of the compressor).

The variable inlet guide vanes seems like the best solution and is what is used in pretty much all modern gas turbine compressors.

[johnny comelately]

According to Mercedes there's the equivalent of 4 average elephants pressing down on each piston, don't know how many elephants they've added since 2016 though.

No one that knows will say, and all we have to go on is estimates.

As far as I can tell for the Mercedes engine(the current benchmark)
1.) 800+ hp from the ICE
2.) 52MJ/kg
3.) I remember saying combustion temperatures can be as high as 2400K so somewhere around 6% oxygen in the exhaust.
4.) Boost ~5bar absolute, Compression 16:1 +-2 points, cylinder pressure ~440bar
5.) no clue.

Hello Miami, wouldn't mind looking at the article (I guess it is) re the Mercedes elephants, would you have a link please . Serious request by the way, I could imagine someone pulling your leg.

The elephant thing is from AMG F1:s YouTube account from 2015 or 2016, can't quite remember.

This video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx4HMSNx_MY

Thanks very much for that

[johnny comelately]

It was claimed on several occasions that the cylinder pressure exceeds 440 bar. I assure you that no aluminium piston can see 300 bar regularly and last for as long as these engines are meant to last. Maybe they can get 400+bar with occasional knock.

I just want to clarify that the pressures there are peak cylinder pressures or BMEP?
I know this sounds vague but it is important when there is so little info around

We are talking about peak cylinder pressures since these are what fail pistons (besides inertial loads).
BMEP is not a "real" cylinder pressure, just like mean piston speed is not a real piston speed. It is a derived quantity used as a displacement normalized performance indicator and can be seen as average cylinder pressure over a cycle.

BMEP will always be just a fraction of PCP, however the two are related.

Thank you, just had to make sure.
BMEP (I get your definition) highly dependent on EVO timing and in a 6 cylinder its important to hold everything in context.

[johnny comelately]

According to Mercedes there's the equivalent of 4 average elephants pressing down on each piston, don't know how many elephants they've added since 2016 though.

No one that knows will say, and all we have to go on is estimates.

As far as I can tell for the Mercedes engine(the current benchmark)
1.) 800+ hp from the ICE
2.) 52MJ/kg
3.) I remember saying combustion temperatures can be as high as 2400K so somewhere around 6% oxygen in the exhaust.
4.) Boost ~5bar absolute, Compression 16:1 +-2 points, cylinder pressure ~440bar
5.) no clue.

Hello Miami, wouldn't mind looking at the article (I guess it is) re the Mercedes elephants, would you have a link please . Serious request by the way, I could imagine someone pulling your leg.

The elephant thing is from AMG F1:s YouTube account from 2015 or 2016, can't quite remember.

This video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx4HMSNx_MY

There was a dwarf elephant which must be what Honda, Renault used in earlier times
And it has been determined Mercedes are using African Bush bull elephants in qualifying.

[johnny comelately]

It was claimed on several occasions that the cylinder pressure exceeds 440 bar. I assure you that no aluminium piston can see 300 bar regularly and last for as long as these engines are meant to last. Maybe they can get 400+bar with occasional knock.

That's what I'm thinking, that they actually allow some detonation to happen. That engine life is determined by how many detonation events have occurred.

Yes, I remember someone else suggesting this too and it does sound plausible. There was much talk in the media about in cylinder pressure sensors (I think Ilien said something about this too) which would tie in with that.

There will be no knocking at these pressures would be the best assumption.
If you have seen minor knock in high pressure engines you will understand, it is phenomenal in its destruction.
If they used safeguard protection via pressure sensors you could imagine mapping that could retard/cut ignition enough. Ion detection is too late.(imho)

[63l8qrrfy6]

I just want to clarify that the pressures there are peak cylinder pressures or BMEP?
I know this sounds vague but it is important when there is so little info around

We are talking about peak cylinder pressures since these are what fail pistons (besides inertial loads).
BMEP is not a "real" cylinder pressure, just like mean piston speed is not a real piston speed. It is a derived quantity used as a displacement normalized performance indicator and can be seen as average cylinder pressure over a cycle.

BMEP will always be just a fraction of PCP, however the two are related.

Thank you, just had to make sure.
BMEP (I get your definition) highly dependent on EVO timing and in a 6 cylinder its important to hold everything in context.

Uhm well, strictly mathematically it depends on torque and displacement. So it is highly dependent on all the many things that influence torque.