F1 without Ferrari?

[George-Jung]

Because that is not the way these Italians negotiate..

I'm Italian and I might be offended by this...ahahah I'm joking. Anyway yes, you may have right. But also, I think that for the story and the number of fans that Ferrari can bring to the sport, is it fair that it has a little "look of favour" by the Organization (not in the way that is going now...)

I fully agree, no F1 without Ferrari- but that is just my humble opinion.

[Jolle]

Of course there is F1 without Ferrari. But not as we know it... although Mercedes is another one of the big ones that have filled the gap in recent years.

The other big question is, is there the same "holiness" around Ferrari if they are not in F1? There isn't another motorsport event that has the same kind of history and advancement as F1.

Thinking about it, there are only two really manufacturer championships. WEC and F1. Even Indycar is more or less a spec series at the moment.

[Vanja #66]

This goes much deeper than simply Ferrari vs F1 (aka Liberty Media and FIA recently). FIA, Liberty and Red Bull are on one side, with a desire to simplify championship and dumb the cars down. A lot. And not just in terms of engines. Ferrari, Mercedes and McLaren (though not nearly as public as previous two) are on the other side, allegedly with backing from Ecclestone and his entourage. They would form a breakaway championship and split the fans in two. F1 would be NASCAR-type show before technology, breakaway series would be based on technology and pinnacle of motorsport.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2018/03/ ... -are-free/

James Allen shares a lot of info with us in this article.

Honestly, I don't think there will be a separation in the end, it's too risky for both sides and completely needless. But this battle for 2021 rule-set will be big. Very big.

[ace456]

Ferrari(Fiat Chrysler Group) and Mercedes together are worth at least $200-250 billion(all assets put together). And both have a global presence, global fan following, global offices with "contacts" in every major country. They will attract sponsors at the drop of a hat! Not to mention the political and economic might to get things their way. Compared to all the other teams on the paddock that are worth much much less and pale in comparison. These 2 are literally financially assisting atleast 4 teams apart from them. You take these two out and you are left with Renault (With Mitsubishi and Nissan) with any kind of money(I am talking double digit Billions). The new investors in F1 dont want this to happen, heck they just bought F1 and 6 years later its worth way way less of what they bough it for? No way. Plus their monopoly on cutting edge 4 wheel racing is gone and thats not a good thing.

As for the engine, they will have to make compromises, i'm sure they will not persist with this engine formula once they leave and start their own series.

Greedy huh. Follow the money!! And all is good. i'd join this new league. Its a safer option when actually you look at it. Maybe no f1 if there is no Ferrari. For sure no f1 if there is no ferrari and mercedes.

[Manoah2u]

F1 without Ferrari would mean the battle is between Mercedes and RedBull.
i don't see the problem, actually.

well i know that's too simplistic,
as it would also mean Haas needs to get their parts otherwise, and so does it mean customers need to find another engine supplier. Haas and Alfa Romeo, that is. Even though Alfa Romeo Sauber might rebrand the Ferrari engine to their own name. so only Haas would but then they can use a rebranded AlfaRomeo engine in the shape of Maserati.

All other teams would get more money.

I don't see the problem.

Less red in the field. and less FIA bending.

All Ferrari staff would join Ferrari to WEC/LeMans/wherever they'll go or find some place in F1 anyway.
Raikkonen is reaching his retirement anyway.

Only Vettel would be bugged, but has a long way to go to feel like Alonso did.

If the 'tifosi' are really FERRARI supporters, and not just F1 hooligans for a red color, then nothing should change only that they'll now watch WEC/LM instead of F1.

So really, i don't bother.

Doesn't take away i'd very much love to see Ferrari stay in F1, and that i have nothing against particular team, but let's not make too much out of it.

Also, in the end, they'll never leave anyway.

[dans79]

This goes much deeper than simply Ferrari vs F1 (aka Liberty Media and FIA recently). FIA, Liberty and Red Bull are on one side, with a desire to simplify championship and dumb the cars down.

And that's just because RBR thinks they are better at aero than everyone else. Personally I don't think they are that great at that either.

[Edax]

Of course there is F1 without Ferrari. But not as we know it... although Mercedes is another one of the big ones that have filled the gap in recent years.

The other big question is, is there the same "holiness" around Ferrari if they are not in F1? There isn't another motorsport event that has the same kind of history and advancement as F1.

Thinking about it, there are only two really manufacturer championships. WEC and F1. Even Indycar is more or less a spec series at the moment.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The question is not so much what F1 will do without Ferrari, it will run fine. The question is more what Ferrari will do without F1.

Arguably the supercar landscape is much more competitive than it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago. In my youth it was simple you either had a poster of a Countach on the wall or an F40. There were some alternatives like the Vector or the XJ220. But in the pricerange “what I might be able to afford if I eat rice for the rest of my life” there were only a few.

Nowadays there are so many nice offerings in that segment. Lambo, Jaguar, Bugatti, Koeningsegg, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, Mclaren, Bentley, Lotus, Aston Martin.

At the moment Ferrari can lean on their heritage, much of which is due to F1. If your corvette catches fire it is due to shoddy American engineering, if your Ferrari catches fire it is due to Italian passion. A ferrari is worth more than the sum of its components and performance.

I think it is an error to assume that they will maintain that special status amongst car buyers when they would leave F1. When they lose that Ferrari premium, my guess is they will find it much harder to compete.

[Jolle]

Of course there is F1 without Ferrari. But not as we know it... although Mercedes is another one of the big ones that have filled the gap in recent years.

The other big question is, is there the same "holiness" around Ferrari if they are not in F1? There isn't another motorsport event that has the same kind of history and advancement as F1.

Thinking about it, there are only two really manufacturer championships. WEC and F1. Even Indycar is more or less a spec series at the moment.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The question is not so much what F1 will do without Ferrari, it will run fine. The question is more what Ferrari will do without F1.

Arguably the supercar landscape is much more competitive than it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago. In my youth it was simple you either had a poster of a Countach on the wall or an F40. There were some alternatives like the Vector or the XJ220. But in the pricerange “what I might be able to afford if I eat rice for the rest of my life” there were only a few.

Nowadays there are so many nice offerings in that segment. Lambo, Jaguar, Bugatti, Koeningsegg, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, Mclaren, Bentley, Lotus, Aston Martin.

At the moment Ferrari can lean on their heritage, much of which is due to F1. If your corvette catches fire it is due to shoddy American engineering, if your Ferrari catches fire it is due to Italian passion. A ferrari is worth more than the sum of its components and performance.

I think it is an error to assume that they will maintain that special status amongst car buyers when they would leave F1. When they lose that Ferrari premium, my guess is they will find it much harder to compete.

But like you’ve been able to read from other posters above here, this is only true if F1 doesn’t become a Indy car style spec series. RedBull especially is the odd one out at the moment, not being a car manufacturer from the big teams. They want to go back to a formula that plays in their advantage: more or less standardized engines.

It’s a complicated political problem

[DiogoBrand]

It's already that time of the year again?

[TAG]

[Vanja #66]

And that's just because RBR thinks they are better at aero than everyone else. Personally I don't think they are that great at that either.

The way I understood it, RBR would like it this way cause they would have the upper hand compared to the rest of the competition. Renault are fairly neutral with all of this and I like it. They have work to do and this isn't something they have time for.

[Phil]

F1 will not last very long at all IMO without Ferrari. A good 75% of its fanbase would be gone for good.

Assuming this is true, it’ll be interesting to see how many of those italian fans will continue to consume and watch/follow f1 races this season with RAI giving up/losing its broadcasting rights for live races and F1 slipping behind the Sky pay wall....

[Edax]

Of course there is F1 without Ferrari. But not as we know it... although Mercedes is another one of the big ones that have filled the gap in recent years.

The other big question is, is there the same "holiness" around Ferrari if they are not in F1? There isn't another motorsport event that has the same kind of history and advancement as F1.

Thinking about it, there are only two really manufacturer championships. WEC and F1. Even Indycar is more or less a spec series at the moment.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The question is not so much what F1 will do without Ferrari, it will run fine. The question is more what Ferrari will do without F1.

Arguably the supercar landscape is much more competitive than it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago. In my youth it was simple you either had a poster of a Countach on the wall or an F40. There were some alternatives like the Vector or the XJ220. But in the pricerange “what I might be able to afford if I eat rice for the rest of my life” there were only a few.

Nowadays there are so many nice offerings in that segment. Lambo, Jaguar, Bugatti, Koeningsegg, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, Mclaren, Bentley, Lotus, Aston Martin.

At the moment Ferrari can lean on their heritage, much of which is due to F1. If your corvette catches fire it is due to shoddy American engineering, if your Ferrari catches fire it is due to Italian passion. A ferrari is worth more than the sum of its components and performance.

I think it is an error to assume that they will maintain that special status amongst car buyers when they would leave F1. When they lose that Ferrari premium, my guess is they will find it much harder to compete.

But like you’ve been able to read from other posters above here, this is only true if F1 doesn’t become a Indy car style spec series. RedBull especially is the odd one out at the moment, not being a car manufacturer from the big teams. They want to go back to a formula that plays in their advantage: more or less standardized engines.

It’s a complicated political problem

I think it is more a human problem. Car technology has progressed to a point where it reaches the limits of what is possible. Not in terms of technology. It is possible to make cars that go a lot faster, but they would surpass the abilities of that human brain that is controlling it, and which has barely evolved since first going to the track.

Just imagine. If we would free up all the rules we would end up with 9g monsters. Maybe the best of the drivers could get them around a track in an orderly fasion, but not while competing with other drivers. That is something which every series except roborace has to content with.

But as F1 becomes more restricted and more specified, it still is the fastest of the spec series. There are tons of manufacturers that can make a gt3 or a gt4 series car. There are only few which can compete on F1 level. Even with a fully standardised engine you have to invest a ton of knowledge an get all the details right, to be able to compete.

As long if F1 stays on the top of the pack, and the closest to the limits, it will always have a special appeal and marketing value.

[zac510]

They are as much stuck in F1 as F1 is stuck with Ferrari. If they left, what exactly would they do with all the wind tunnels, computing (CFD) infrastructure, car building infrastructure, machinery etc. Sure, some of it could be re-purposed in the road car division but the cost and practicality of doing so might not be great. Maybe it could be adapted to another industry like aerospace, but all that stuff is still stuck on land owned by Ferrari. In motorsport this infrastructure might only be useful for LMP1, NASCAR or providing chassis for a spec-series (a'la A1GP) - for anything else it would be overkill.

This point true for other teams like McLaren, RBR etc but having separate premises they can simply sell it as a package. Ferrari are stuck with this massive factory, on their property.

[Sevach]

If Ferrari steps away from F1 and into Indycar then Liberty has a big problem on their hands.
A huge loss to F1 and creating a credible competitor.
F1 can keep going but it's profits will fall from cliff.

I don't think it will happen though.