General Honda F1 Topic

[j.yank]

I think the problems were at corporate level:

#1. Ron Denis was desperate to regain full control over McLaren. He understand that this cannot be done as a customer team. Also, he knows that he doesn't have money to buy the Mumtalak shares. The only way to get money is to attract a big name in the automotive industry as works engine supplier, and a big name as pilot. Here Honda and Alonso are coming .

#2. Ron Denis is making wrong concept choice, so called "size zero", maybe for two reasons: a) attraction of PP, who is a big name in the aero guild and obsessed with aero downforce from his years in Red Bull (probably this assignment was also due to attraction of investors in Ron's corporate games); b) the wrong perception that Red Bull receipt for success with chassis is still valid (don't forget that the same mistake was done by Ferrari and Red Bull, too).

#3. Of course, the wrong concept didn't work, and the potential investors for Mumtalak shares pulled out. The Ron Denis days in McLaren were over, so the same with all connected with him, including Honda: they become convenient scapegoats. With one exception: Alonso who is enormous marketing asset.

Judging form the Amazon film, I think the decision for divorce with Honda was taken immediately after firing Ron Denis. The whole affair is not about the sport Formula 1, but about money - unfortunately we will never know the details of this story.

These are my two cents.

[muramasa]

There are definitely unstated reasons for the change and I'm willing to put money on the fact that one of the big problems was that McLaren's current team staff did not work particularly well with the Japanese.
That Grand Prix Driver series. The way one of the McLaren guys talks to the Honda engineer was disgraceful and disrespectful, talking to him like a baby slowly... I was so disheartened that McLaren, a team I've loved since I was a kid acted that way.

Piece by piece it became slowly more obvious they just didn't get along. I don't think "predicted 2018 engine performance" made them cancel the contract. I think just different ideologies and disagreements in chassis and PU design ruined it. That and the fact they are now saying 2018 will be a nothing year as they are learning with Renault, so it's not a quick fix.

Something does not add up with the scenario. Probably avoiding any potential racial allegations in the media by staying silent about their differences.
And you tell me Boullier isn't personally ecstatic about having a French supplier... Hmmm.

I think it's bits of everything, result, cultural/national difference, work ethic difference, McLaren having high standard and not compromised in package making, Honda's lack of competitiveness, some miscommunication, etc, all of them accumulated not just one, but perhaps lack of competitiveness in the 2017 PU, the feeling of "not again" and the prospect of "start from 0 all over again" prevailed across the team, was the final nail in the coffin.

In this Japanese article published in last Dec,
http://number.bunshun.jp/articles/-/829413
Nakamura (Honda's chief engineer) reveals that McLaren staffs attitude towards Honda staffs has suddenly and completely changed at the beginning of the opening race last year. He says Honda lost McLaren's trust/faith completely because they couldn't bring what they promised to bring for the 2nd test, and since then the relationship never recovered, and Honda staffs were hurt and devastated by the treatment, and esp the abrupt change of attitude because been building constructive relationship til then, to the extent that some of them were on the verge of psychological collapse at one point.

Yet Nakamura doesnt hesitate to give full gratitude to McLaren, saying Honda wouldnt have been able to race at all without McLaren's support and it was McLaren who kept encouraging Honda staff always in hard times. Hasegawa as well, he kept giving unconditional praise and thanking McLaren til the v last race. And I think they mean it.

On the other hand McLaren is a top team (no sarcasm) aiming to and supposed to be competing at the front, so it's understandable that they couldnt continue like this anymore at the point of 2017. They should need some change of landscape and stimulus and incentive like competing against or being compared with RBR and Renault or Merc or whatever on equal term with same, proven PU. So all those things accumulated bits by bits and relationship and trust deteriorated to the point of no return, and it's CEO's job to give its workers new environment. Honda obviously wanted to stay with McLaren until the v last minute but that's what happened.

So it's the combination of everything. Unfortunate that things didnt work and had to develop like it did, and if so just have to let things go. Right place, wrong time. In the end good for both parties.

[Singabule]

Chasis design for 2017 cars started in early 2016, MCL and Honda has set certain goals and layout together at that date. Because of honda dont know what to do at the point, they follow MCL layout at first and hope they can propose a few change later. But after few months working on New engine, honda feel it is impossible to create that targeted layout and space with certain aspect of performance and reliability compromised if no change in chasis and cooling side. PP is a tough guy, he stick to the first plan and dont want to compromise his team work at that point. And in fact, MCL and Honda unsure if they are allowed to make change (late) the result will instantly there, they cant guarantee that (imagine doctor who must answer percentage of life hope of the patient) at that moment. So, that it, engine is destroyed, MCL lose their patience, and treat honda as garbage. It is all about believe, and MCL expect some experience from their manufacturer to set the goals and maximum tolerance hence PP can stick to the plan and deadline.

[sn809]

There are definitely unstated reasons for the change and I'm willing to put money on the fact that one of the big problems was that McLaren's current team staff did not work particularly well with the Japanese.
That Grand Prix Driver series. The way one of the McLaren guys talks to the Honda engineer was disgraceful and disrespectful, talking to him like a baby slowly... I was so disheartened that McLaren, a team I've loved since I was a kid acted that way.

Piece by piece it became slowly more obvious they just didn't get along. I don't think "predicted 2018 engine performance" made them cancel the contract. I think just different ideologies and disagreements in chassis and PU design ruined it. That and the fact they are now saying 2018 will be a nothing year as they are learning with Renault, so it's not a quick fix.

Something does not add up with the scenario. Probably avoiding any potential racial allegations in the media by staying silent about their differences.
And you tell me Boullier isn't personally ecstatic about having a French supplier... Hmmm.

I think it's bits of everything, result, cultural/national difference, work ethic difference, McLaren having high standard and not compromised in package making, Honda's lack of competitiveness, some miscommunication, etc, all of them accumulated not just one, but perhaps lack of competitiveness in the 2017 PU, the feeling of "not again" and the prospect of "start from 0 all over again" prevailed across the team, was the final nail in the coffin.

In this Japanese article published in last Dec,
http://number.bunshun.jp/articles/-/829413
Nakamura (Honda's chief engineer) reveals that McLaren staffs attitude towards Honda staffs has suddenly and completely changed at the beginning of the opening race last year..................................

Yet Nakamura doesnt hesitate to give full gratitude to McLaren, saying Honda wouldnt have been able to race at all without McLaren's support and it was McLaren who kept encouraging Honda staff always in hard times. Hasegawa as well, he kept giving unconditional praise and thanking McLaren til the v last race. And I think they mean it.

I am sure this has been mentioned many times but Nakamura and Hasegawa praising Mclaren is more Japanese culture than anything else.
Mclaren ran over them with a bus and then put them in front of a train for a head on but Honda culture prevented them from bad mouthing them back.
Everyone knows now Mclaren has issues at the moment and are struggling after Ron and this goes to prove it.
You have to question Zak's commitment to the team and EBs ability.

[makecry]

There are definitely unstated reasons for the change and I'm willing to put money on the fact that one of the big problems was that McLaren's current team staff did not work particularly well with the Japanese.
That Grand Prix Driver series. The way one of the McLaren guys talks to the Honda engineer was disgraceful and disrespectful, talking to him like a baby slowly... I was so disheartened that McLaren, a team I've loved since I was a kid acted that way.

Piece by piece it became slowly more obvious they just didn't get along. I don't think "predicted 2018 engine performance" made them cancel the contract. I think just different ideologies and disagreements in chassis and PU design ruined it. That and the fact they are now saying 2018 will be a nothing year as they are learning with Renault, so it's not a quick fix.

Something does not add up with the scenario. Probably avoiding any potential racial allegations in the media by staying silent about their differences.
And you tell me Boullier isn't personally ecstatic about having a French supplier... Hmmm.

I think it's bits of everything, result, cultural/national difference, work ethic difference, McLaren having high standard and not compromised in package making, Honda's lack of competitiveness, some miscommunication, etc, all of them accumulated not just one, but perhaps lack of competitiveness in the 2017 PU, the feeling of "not again" and the prospect of "start from 0 all over again" prevailed across the team, was the final nail in the coffin.

In this Japanese article published in last Dec,
http://number.bunshun.jp/articles/-/829413
Nakamura (Honda's chief engineer) reveals that McLaren staffs attitude towards Honda staffs has suddenly and completely changed at the beginning of the opening race last year..................................

Yet Nakamura doesnt hesitate to give full gratitude to McLaren, saying Honda wouldnt have been able to race at all without McLaren's support and it was McLaren who kept encouraging Honda staff always in hard times. Hasegawa as well, he kept giving unconditional praise and thanking McLaren til the v last race. And I think they mean it.

I am sure this has been mentioned many times but Nakamura and Hasegawa praising Mclaren is more Japanese culture than anything else.
Mclaren ran over them with a bus and then put them in front of a train for a head on but Honda culture prevented them from bad mouthing them back.
Everyone knows now Mclaren has issues at the moment and are struggling after Ron and this goes to prove it.
You have to question Zak's commitment to the team and EBs ability.

Marumasa is from Japan, so he knows what he is talking about, surely you dont know more about Japanese cultuer than he does unless you are from Japan too and his is the most logical explanation I have read on this forum about what happened with McLaren Honda. Stop trying to dig into it and make it something it isn't. Even though I used to kind of oppose Marumasa's stand on McLaren Honda sometimes, I have to agree with him on this one 100%.

[Hino]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fernan ... 97861.html

Britain's most decorated Formula One team are taking a spectacular $80million gamble on their future that could result in a clear-out of their top names if it all goes wrong.

Standard Sport can reveal that McLaren had to pay $80m (almost £57m) in compensation to engine supplier Honda to end their disastrous three-year partnership.

The relief at McLaren headquarters was palpable when the two went their separate ways and the team was able to buy in Renault engines. But Standard Sport understands the patience of McLaren’s owners — the French-Arab businessman Mansour Ojjeh and Mumtalakat, the Bahrain sovereign wealth fund — is stretched to breaking point.

They are paying Fernando Alonso more than £20m a year, yet the two-time world champion has got nowhere near the podium in three seasons. Worse still, in 60 grands prix Alonso has failed to start twice and retired 17 times, with a highest-placed finish of just fifth.

Zak Brown, the chief executive brought into replace Ron Dennis, has been talking up the new relationship with Renault ahead of the first grand prix of the season on Sunday in Australia.

Alonso has warned there could be pain in Melbourne as the new set-up beds in, but the Spaniard, like Brown, has been long on optimism though the past three seasons yet short of good results.

The reality is McLaren now stand behind the Renault works team, which is promising big improvements this year, and Red Bull, long-time Renault engine customers, who many believe will be Lewis Hamilton’s biggest challengers this year.

The comparisons with the two other teams could be stark and will have Ojjeh and his fellow directors in the McLaren boardroom in Woking scrutinising every result and wondering whether they will have to split with not just Alonso, but also senior executives like Brown.

It is high stakes for a team that once ruled Formula One, chalking up 20 titles as top constructor and for drivers like Ayrton Senna and Hamilton. Without a victory since Brazil in 2012 or even a podium since Australia the following year, the pressure is on.

McLaren has lost major sponsors like Vodafone, meanwhile, Alonso is left hoping that the team’s $80m gamble will pay off soon.

[PlatinumZealot]

That 80 million is just the refund from Honda's agreement. No biggie. Toro Rosso will gladly take it.

Sad to say - but the reality is that with the new engine package McLaren has to start back at zero. This is year one of three before they can even think of getting near to the podium. I don't know if Alonso can wait that long.

[etusch]

When we compare ex mclaren to new, reconstruction of whole team is inavitable and they have to start now

[Wouter]

Dear Wazari, have you heard anything about the cause of the MGU-H's collapse of Gasly? Is it perhaps another cause that the engine has failed? Could the engine be repaired or should a new one be installed? I read that Tanabe was very surprised and wants to quickly find the cause.

[Thunder18]

Gasly MGUH issue, Hartley finished the race.

[Wouter]

Gasly MGUH issue, Hartley finished the race.

Thank you Thunder. My mistake.

[PlatinumZealot]

You can be sure that Franz Tost was straight away in a meeting with Honda making sure that they deliver on the root cause of the failure and if RedBull can offer any assistance. He won't pressure them with unrealistic time lines, heck, Honda might already have the solution in the new Spec engine. If Wazari won't divulge anything, we have to closely watch Franz' body language at the next race to get a feel of the situation.

[McMika98]

I think Frank and TR have very low expectation for first half of season. So he will stay positive for now i think.
As for Wazari, it is the time of year when he disappears magically off these forums. Understandable given the vitriol sometimes.

[techman]

honda are very unfortuante. they have been given 2 rookies to compare. its starting all over again for them. i think they should buy out force india. no point trying to hope that TR will get good drivers . TR will always be a B team to redbull. what is honda trying to gain from this?

[bigblue]

The obvious : relative peace to develop, and a shot at Red Bull 2019, sounds near ideal. There's always a bit more you could ask for, but it's pretty good as-is.