Record fuel price today in Germany

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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A few comments:

Oil hasn't changed price because it's finished. The price we see is because the demand is larger than the supply. The difference is small. Peak oil does not mean an abrupt end to oil. It does mean that demand of conventional oil will exceed supplies of conventional crude, thus marking the end to cheap crude.

World oil supply, April 2008
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World oil demand, April 2008
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So, it's not exactly an oil pinch, it's demand exceeding supply, not in ten years, but now.

Notice most of the "extra" supply (2 million barres per day, roughly) we see in first quarter of 2008 comes from OPEC:

OPEC oil supply, April 2008
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Notice also that the arabs are doing what they can. They reached a "spread" (that is, a discount) of 12 dollars in March! The graph also shows that their efforts lasr month to curb oil price were unsuccesful and the market corrected them in a few days.

Oil price spreads. Notice the dip in mid March for Dubai oil: 12 dollars!
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Finally, OPEC is exhausting their fields. Did you know that the giant field of Ghawar supergiant oil field accounts for 60% of the saudi oil supply? Guess what: Gawhar is more and more expensive by the day. Engineers are pumping millions of gallons of water trying to extract the oil, a process that dilutes the oil and makes the field progresively exhausted.

That's the reason for the price of oil futures. The new discoveries in Brazil could compensate something of that, but not entirely.

So, 200 dollars the barrel for the end of the decade it's very much of a possibility, if not a certainty.

About the happy ethanol solution, I've mentioned that you need around 11 Hectares of crops for one car. That's unsustainable. The roughly 600 million vehicles on Earth would require around 6.000 million Ha, that is half the arable land in the Earth. http://www.theglobaleducationproject.or ... d-soil.php Even a few percentage points of ethanol for transportation has already stressed the already tense food markets.

The consumption of grains has followed supply closely, and has a trend in the last 40 years of lack of supply. This graph about the world grain stock tells the whole story:

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Now, tell me: is there a solution? Not now. So, cars will become less than popular. I give them less than 10 years to be radically changed.

FIA is not helping a bit. It's in "reaction mode". I suggested elsewhere that the only way out of this predicament is starting a new series for extremely energy efficient racing cars. Formula 21 or something.

As I see it, F1 is running its last years as we know it. Not only because of oil but because the lack of democracy at what I've already called Internet-less FIA.
Ciro

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Short on links today so I'll comment instead. Another company has announced a car to compete with the Nano - Nissan, also a high mileage car, 80 MPG, the Axion was just announced on BBC as going on sale in the UK priced to compete with an average family size car. All these small cars, including the Smart, with very small engines resemble the Japanese Kei car class. I think the world will see many designs introduced, I also read about a European manufacturer with an engine under 1000cc that was both turbocharged and supercharged that made over 140HP and very good gas mileage. We may very well see highly engineered, high tech micro cars soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car
Take a look at some of the links and car models

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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If you live in the US consider buying a 93 Geo beater:
"And Chevy markets the Geo Metro XFi hatchback coupe, whose fuel economy of 53 miles per gallon, city, and 58, highway, has made it the American thrift champ for five years running."

That was 15 years ago so it should be possible to get much better mileage from a 1L microcar today.

There's a developing market for them according to CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflif ... index.html
About a guy who's made a side business buying and fixing Geo Metro's for sale on ebay. Don't imagine a 100 mile commute is at all unusual in urban N America.

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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So why are the Saudi filling up their Ferraris with 34 cent premium, I've seen it, and I'm paying nearly 4 bucks for cheap garbage gas in the US. Doesn't seem to me there is a problem of supply on their end.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Ray wrote:So why are the Saudi filling up their Ferraris with 34 cent premium, I've seen it, and I'm paying nearly 4 bucks for cheap garbage gas in the US. Doesn't seem to me there is a problem of supply on their end.
Maybe because the Saudis have like 1 trillion dollars in the bank at Chase and Citi and they have less than strong legitimacy at home? The less democratic freedom you have, the less expensive are the populace needs. It's called populism. They also live by the well, you know, it's like asking for potatoes in Idaho. Besides Ghawar peaked in 2005, it's not going to disappear tomorrow, and if it does, you're going to pay through your nose for that remaining oil. They're pumping in as much water as they pump oil out. Pumping that amount of water (7 million barrels a day) into the desert is not exactly cheap.
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Image

to tune out the $ effect have a loook at this picture

it supports the theory that demand is outstripping supply. the price run has started in 1999 when coincidetially the rise of China as the manufacturing center of the world started which kicked of an unprecedented urbanization. as we know the growth rates in China are still accelerating beyond 10% with official policy looking for 8%. India apparently is on the same path. all optimistic estimates of peak oil are probably based on 1.7 to 2% annual growth rate as seen in the twentieth century. demand is likely to accelerate even faster as economic growth fuelled by investment turns into consumption in the high growth countries. I would not bet against 200 $/ barrel this year.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Chaparral
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Joined: 01 May 2008, 13:10
Location: New England District NSW Australia

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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I think theres a bit more to it than that Ciro - the market is being squeezed by a couple of things - one of the main things is the stock market speculators globally who've driven the price up artificially over the last 12-18 months and if you look at some of the leading observers in that area they are saying (sorry warning) investors not to jump on the oil sheares bandwagon as theres a good chance you will get burnt in the short to medium term - as prices come off quite quickly and dramatically over the next period. OPEC is squeezing us with rises of $20 a barrel in a day same with the Asian consortiums - you are correct however its a supply demand situation with demand in the US one of the main problems (China & India to a much lesser extent) - Im not sure if the US sites (ie down in the gulf area New Orleans etc) are back on line these days but they were supplying I think around 30% on the US market when operational before the cyclone. Here in Australia it was bought to my attention that we now only produce around 20% of our needs (a decade or so ago we supplied 100% of our needs) - I believe 80% of our oil production goes off shore now -thats a problem in itself. Id be willing to put money on the fact that whilst there are any number of oil fields globally that we havent even touched the surface on likely oil fields given 66% of the earth is covered by water and pretty much unchartered down there. So I wouldnt be writing off oil as a fuel too quickly - however there is natural gas - Australia has enough Im told to power every energy driven industry in Australia for at least 500 years - that came from a senior oil & gas guy I spoke with back in the 90s on a plane back from Darwin.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

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Minicucci
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007, 21:25
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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I filled up at $1.27 CAD last night, in Toronto... I drive a 2001 nissan pathfinder SE, for my lifestyle, as a hockey coach, player and golfer, it is absoloutley fantastic, and the 4wd is phenomenal when we get 35cm of snow in a night ( this past winter, on multiple occasions)... but boy am I hating the $75CAD fill-ups.
"Aerodynamics is for those who cannot manufacture good engines." -Enzo Ferrari

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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That's kind of interesting, looking at WhiteBlue's date/oil-price graph I can see when a spike corresponded to a recession in my town - 4 times. I'm curious if the current spike will do the same? If it does, it's going to be an express elevator to Hell.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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there are a couple of indicators that we have a long term demand explosion. the price of diesel being the most serious. historically diesel has never been so much sought compared to gasoline as it is today. the demand outstrips the refinery capacity globally by far. the underlying problem is that commercial vehicles and electricity generation in the growing economies are soaking up the diesel which used to be used for transportation only. China which was a net producer of coal is now importing huge quantities of coal and has doubled prices by this huge demand. they are filling the electricity gap with diesel generated capacity. this will not change unless we see a serious break in economic growth in Asia. of course there is speculation but it would not happen if there werent't basic market movements in the first place. the US is classically long over the peak and that situation can only be mitigated if they kick open the coastal waters in Florida and California for exploration that were shut down in the 70ties. what the graph also shows is the part of the price explosion that is caused by dollar weakness. if you take the € graph that is probably closer to realistic price because the underlying currency traditionally is less volatile.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Chaparral
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Joined: 01 May 2008, 13:10
Location: New England District NSW Australia

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Diesel here in Australia is around $1.80 a litre and continues to rise which invariably will cut into the diesel market which is somewhat minute compared to the overall market - 1,000.000 cars overall sold in Australia in 2007 and they will exceed that this year - the biggest growth market 4WD SUVs - most of which are sold to residents in capital cities - WTF!!

Petrol well its risen from $1.20 a litre before Xmas to touching $1.65 last week - of that price the Australian government via the excise tax per litre take 39% in taxes - big bucks.

Natural gas is around $0.65 a litre

China well they continue to open one coal fired powerstation a week much of it drawn from Western Australia - I dispute the diesel usage in that area thats just not correct. One area that has seen a dramatic upsurge in the use of diesel is their rail system - I know this because Im about to release a DVD title on the subject. In 1992 China had 10,000+ steam driven rail engines in 2006 just under 2,000 they have been busy converting to diesel power (and electric).

So in essense the entire energy thing is a work in progress with people jumping to conclusions all over the place and pushing various agendas for their own wellbeing (and the bucks involved) :?
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

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vyselegend
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006, 17:05
Location: Paris, France

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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WhiteBlue wrote:We had a significant price shock today that will probably change something in the perception of the car owners.

For the first time ever diesel hit the the price of petrol although it is taxed lower than petrol in Germany and reached a price of 1.5 €/L.

At the same time people can buy vegetable oil at 0.9 €/L at the grocery store which has become big business for tuners. Diesel cars are retuned for salat oil and people are buying their fuel at trhe supermarket.
Those prices you mention are the regular one here in France since the new year. (I don't want to verify but I suspect we are the country where petrol / diesel are the most expensive. Same goes for taxes btw) :roll: Welcome in the Teuro zone my friend. :wink:

Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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vyselegend wrote: Those prices you mention are the regular one here in France since the new year. (I don't want to verify but I suspect we are the country where petrol / diesel are the most expensive. Same goes for taxes btw) :roll: Welcome in the Teuro zone my friend. :wink:
I live very close to Aquitaine (southwest France), and I go often there. Suffice to say that I make damn sure that I won't need to refuel in France. My mother was once caught with the fuel reserve and had to refuel in France and, well, we pulled her leg a lot at home ("next time refuel here and buy a diamond there"). Being the cheapskate that I am, I would have driven at 90 km/h, switched off all useless electronic stuff and then hoped to get back to spain.

BTW: Prices in spain last time I filled up were 1.16€/l for unleaded 95 and like 1.20 for diesel. It's the first time in spain that diesel is more expensive than petrol.

2nd BTW: I drive a Ford Focus 1.6 (4 cylinders, 100 HP), and it gets a good mileage if I drive like a granny. Currently, I average 7.5 l/100km (31.5 mpg), but I know I can get it to 7.0 and my current commuting isn't precisely fuel efficient (seeing my girlfriend rules out the bus)
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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tarzoon
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Joined: 17 May 2006, 19:53
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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The problem won't be solved easily, as we all know. There's too much money making based on speculation. Vegetable oil and bio-diesel were seen as an alternative, but after the rise in corn price, we never know...

We can continue blaming China and other emerging markets, but europeans and americans are still the biggest problem, as far as I see it. We are the ones setting the standards of two or even three cars per family, not to mention plastics and other consumer products. We are showing all the others what they can achieve.

Renewable energy is not efficient and cost-effective enough
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121055427930584069.html

So it's really a matter of us paying more for our fuel, energy, heating, water, waste disposal, house mortgage, car loan...

Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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The truth is, jumping out of the train is difficult, especially when we are well caught by the exponential growth spiral banks have imposed.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr