Record fuel price today in Germany

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Miguel wrote:.. I drive a Ford Focus 1.6 (4 cylinders, 100 HP), and it gets a good mileage if I drive like a granny. Currently, I average 7.5 l/100km (31.5 mpg), but I know I can get it to 7.0 and my current commuting isn't precisely fuel efficient (seeing my girlfriend rules out the bus)
Yesterday I made a test and slipstreamed my BMW 118d behind an 18wheeler at 92 km/h. The consumption went down from 4.2 L/100km to 3.6 L/100km. So if I get caught with low petrol close to a cheap fuel source I know how to reduce to the min.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

ruud.
ruud.
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 22:38

Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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netherlands, Petrol over 1,60 euro / liter. Time for alternative fuels i guess..

bizadfar
bizadfar
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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G-Rock wrote:This will be an era where both the environmentalists AND oil companies can be content. This situation is good for both and will provide great opportunities for auto manufacturers if they get cracking at delivering some new techologies and not just talking about them and using them as PR.
An example of this is that everyone but Ford, GM and Chrysler are bringing clean diesels into North America.

Bellati, your comment of driving at 100km/hr vs 130km/hr is exactly what I've been preaching to my friends who complain about fuel prices. You could save yourself 2-3 L/100 easily by doing just that... but people are impatient and in this day and age, impatience costs money.

I think that fuel could still double (in canada) in price and not impact peoples driving habits that much. People here are still driving 5.7 L V8 fullsize trucks, minivans, cars with the v6 or v8 package instead of the 4 cylinder with standard transmission so they have a lot of breathing room if things get really expensive. I drive a BMW 318 now and if need be, I could drop down to a Toyota Yaris and still maintain my 30000km/year driving habit.
We can all adjust.
See, this is my problem. Call me backwards, but I'm a huge fan of cars that are almost 10 years old or older (40~).

You're own example, BMW 318 to toyota, how could you? Once you go euro for a daily driver, u never go back.

This stupid prices can be kerbed by governments shutting down these dumbass analysts speculation. Speculation is what mainly is driving this prices. But they don't do anything for a reason (and when they say they can't, esp the US, don't be daft)

Agree with Belatti, if you an exxy car, petrol should be least of your concern.

Price here peaked at $1.60 (heavy speculation 2 weeks ago did not --- help at all, and a prediction by many sources earlier this year that petrol would exceed $2 was ridiculously published.... fat arse corruption). Anyway I do about 6000kms maximum a year (live close to city, don't need to drive much). With the way I drive, I get about 450km out of a tank whereas I should be getting 500+ (yes a lot of speeding and joy riding, some track day here and there).
It does not cost me much with the mileage I do. But if something is at the wrong/inflated price, I believe strongly it should be corrected.
I fell sorry for my parents though. The Landcruiser just eats petrol so fast and easy and to fill 160L.... It barely gets driven anymore since mother is retired and dad drives his little econo box to work (downgrade from Mercs, but he is the kind that is willing to make these sacrifices when not necessary in my opinion).
ruud. wrote:netherlands, Petrol over 1,60 euro / liter. Time for alternative fuels i guess..
Correct, but what government gives any initiative? LOL! :mrgreen:


Ciro the D>S has been around for a while yes. But did u ever stop to think that the ppl controlling the supply would intentionally do it for their own benefit. Business my friend. :mrgreen:

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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It's all about profit. I still believe there is no shortage, they make that crap up so they can charge what they want. The demand in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the like has probably gone up because of all the Ferraris and Lambos they buy. They pay 32 cents a gallon, not because they are in the middle of the oil field, it's because that's how much it's really worth. Our money here is worth absolutely ---. And they are making it worse and worse every day. Tax rebate check you say? I say it's made up money that hurts the economy. Yet all the sheep and morons of this country will continue to vote with emotion instead of cold hard facts. The Federal Reserve is one of the culprits. Every since it's inception, we've been in debt. Because the Fed creates money from nothing. Nothing of value backs it up, so it's worthless. The other is the damn speculators. They own stock in oil. They speculate, the price goes up, they make money while everyone else suffers. Plain and simple. When the US market crashes because of them, again like in 1929, they will be just fine. They'l have money, however much it may be worth they'll still have more than me.

I'm tired of this ---. I drive a lowered 5 thousand pound Chevrolet truck with an 'antiquated/low tech' pushrod motor that gets right at 24 miles a gallon. I drive about 50-60 miles A WEEK. Yet all these tree hugging, evironmental, hippie scum --- asswipes say I'm the problem for not driving a Prius. Kiss my ass. I drive about a fourth as far as 90% of the people I know. They burn more gas in two days than I do in a week. I'm tired of getting screwed at the pump because of a greedy asshole somewhere lying and saying there is a gas shortage. The world is covered in water, the oil rigs are safe and clean these days, the money is there to explore it, it's produced within the reactions deep in the earth. No reason we should have a shortage.

Oh, and the next --- that says 'carbon footprint' gets a virtual kick in the ass from me. I'm so tired of that 'holier than thou' speech I could scream. You are not better than me because you driove a 'hip' green car that hollywood idiots and the Great Manipulator His Majesty Al Gore have laid a guilt trip on you to buy and 'save the earth and reduce you carbon footprint' They want to see a footprint? Keep that hippy asshole talk up and I'll kick them in the face. There's your footprint! :evil:

Anyway, I still love you guys though. Group hug? :D

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tarzoon
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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a quick look at wikipedia and I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermiler

these techniques can be a bit more extreme, like extra tire pressure and replacing oil by less viscous substances to improve mileage

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Ray
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Nempimania (also Nenpimania) is an obsession with getting the best fuel economy possible from a hybrid car. It is derived from the Japanese "nempi" (燃費)--a contraction of nenryōshōhiryō (燃料消費量)[4] meaning fuel economy, and mania, meaning "craze for." Nempimania is exhibited by owners of the Toyota Prius and other hybrid owners by various habits aimed at maximizing fuel economy: slow starts, "Pulse and Glide", timing stoplights, driving barefoot, etc.
I'm sorry, but what the hell does driving barefoot do?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Driving barefoot (which I like) means you're more sensitive to gas (and brake!) pedal, I think. I do it sometimes when racing.

About the demand/supply thing, Ray, well, yes, it's a bussiness, but then everything is a bussiness. As you accept, there is a real shortage, for many reasons, not only oil fields exhausted.

I'm an hypermiler by nature and I've done what I can for the people around me to do the same.

I have a Goat (Pontiac GTO) but I bought the kit for "she" to run on gasoline (for the track! :)) and natural gas (NGV). So, if I have an old car, with a large engine, not the most efficient in the world (but one of the more durable there are), how can I claim I'm a hypermiler? Simple and complicated at the same time, follow me for some minutes, if you wish:

As Colombia has a huge supply (for 20 years or so) of NGV and the price is half of gasoline more or less, I'm paying around 1.50 dollars per gallon for this car, which is a bargain: I get to pay what I could pay driving a Prius, but I have a classic car with a powerful V8 hemi that everybody watches. It's totally original, all parts have been replaced by me or by my beloved mechanic, that probably loves the car more than I do and has been working on it for 20 years.

I don't care too much about the mileage, I have had this car for 25 years now. I use it sparsely, I really care more about "she" than anything in this world except my family.

The most important thing is that I live 7 blocks away from my wife's work and children school. I work at home. So, I spend around 10 dollars per week on gas, sometimes less.


My wife's Sentra does something like 15 km/liter (30 miles per gallon) and it's one of the most economical and powerful engines (for it's size) that I've seen, no wonder many people use this model (coupe) for drag races (110 hp for a car that weighs 1 ton and it's really cheap). You can do 13 seconds for the quarter mile easily and it's really one of the most economic and trusty engines I've seen. I don't touch the car, everything is done at the dealer shop. Besides, my wife drives like a crazy woman and she also doesn't allow me to drive it frequently. She zigzags among the traffic as almost all colombians do, something like the Milan style of driving... :)

I drive mostly in a city, coasting all the time. I drive slowly on city streets, I'm not like my wife: I've done road maintenance, when young, and I have seen too many accidents in my life. It's not a funny thing, let me tell you.

Add to all this that in Bogotá we have the ridiculously low top speed (city wide) of 60 kph and it is more or less well enforced. In Colombian highways, top speed is another ridiculously low 80 kph. No wonder accidents have gone down in half since the speed limits were put in place.

Besides, in Bogotá (and in most colombian cities) we have in place a restriction called "Peak and License" (or Pico y Placa in spanish).

It works like that:

You CANNOT drive your car during peak hours two days per week. That is, on Monday, cars with license plates ended in 1-2-3-4 cannot drive from 5 am to 9 am and from 4 pm to 7 pm. This means that during peak hours traffic is reduced 40 percent, so the traffic jams are slight, thus less gasoline spent.

On Tuesday, cars with plates ended in 5-6-7-8 are restricted. On Wednesday, cars with plates ended in 9-0-1-2, etc, so you have two days in the week when you have to use public transportation (we have one of the best heavy bus systems in the world) or share your car with your neighbor. It's not voluntary, it's enforced.

Heavy bus system in Bogotá
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In some cities (smaller than Bogotá, that has 8 million people) you're restricted only two days: plates ending in 1-2 on Monday, 3-4 on Tuesday, etc. This system is used for taxis also (in Bogotá, that is, they're restricted one day in the week, there are too many taxis here).

Every year the numbers are moved forward one day. People has adapted to this system after they revolted initially: it's much more "democratic" than restrictions based on tolls (which place a heavy burden on poor people).

We've also built a large "cycloroutes" system in the city and we are part of the "Day without car" cities.

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"Cycloroutes" in Bogotá
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I have to confess I'm really proud about the "colombian system".

The price for gas was the result of a study in which I participated, as well as the "peak and license" system. This means that my country is well prepared for the situation we live now and we have more than doubled the speeds during peak hours compared with the former situation (from 11 kph to 30 khp).

That study (made in 2000, in which we predicted 100 dollars per barrel in 2007 ;)) made our country to build a huge Natural Gas infrastructure. It goes for more than 1.500 km, from the northern tip of Colombia, where the natural gas fields are located, to almost all the country, even the southern border with Ecuador. This means Colombia is one of the countries that burns less natural gas in oil wells. We actually EXPORT it to Venezuela, which, having so much oil, IMPORTS gas from Colombia to drive the machinery for their own oil wells in Maracaibo Lake (! :)).

Chuchupa oil field, that produces half of the NGV used in Colombia until 2030
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To my friend Belatti I have to say that we followed closely their example for NGV, one of the best systems in the world for NGV that I know. We're following their path (I am a consultor for some gasoline and gas distributors, like Shell and Terpel, a national firm).

Finally, Colombia still produces enough oil for internal consumption, but has not enough refining capacity, which explains why natural gas prices are kept artificially low: the cost of a new refinery outweighs the benefits of "milking" people for natural gas.

Another reason, beyond the refinery thing is that you reduce the load on the electric grid, because at those natural gas prices everybody has a kitchen, oven, water heater and even clothes dryers that run on it. I pay around 15 dollars for all my natural gas comsuption in a month (for a family of four), while I payed around 70 dollars a month using electricity.

Another important thing: all city blocks are classified in one of six "stratums": 1 for poor people, 6 for rich people (my house is classified as 4). The price of services varies according to the "strata" of your block, so poor people is subsidized by rich people higher tariffs.

On top of all that, as my country is really mountainous and we have a lot of water, most of the electric grid is powered by hydroelectricity. Add the fact that we have a mild weather, so almost no houses (except for the lowlands) has heating or air conditioning.

I wonder if other countries can learn something from us. No wonder that if you rank the countries by their impact on the world environment, Colombia comes on top (I'm dead serious about that, I have no time to search for the site, but I've seen the world classification, I'll do it later).
Ciro

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Ray
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Well Ciro, thanks for the info. Much obliged. I've driven barefoot too. In karts, and mainly because I hit something/someone and my shoes flew off. :D No lie. I got out of that habit though!

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joseff
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Ciro Pabón wrote:As Colombia has a huge supply (for 20 years or so) of NGV and the price is half of gasoline more or less, I'm paying around 1.50 dollars per gallon for this car, which is a bargain...
Hey Ciro how much is natural gas in US$ or Euro? Our natural gas price is also around half of petrol, but AFAIK it's not available ouside big cities. I'm contemplating a gas conversion for the car as well. How's the fuel consumption vs. petrol?
Ciro Pabón wrote:We've also built a large "cycloroutes" system in the city and we are part of the "Day without car" cities.
With 300+ km, Bogota's ciclorutas is one of the world's largest and best. I've replaced about 80-100km of weekly car commuting with cycling, resulting in about 15% improvement in mileage now that the car is no longer used for short/solo trips. There's also the obvious health benefits, although I'd imagine doing it in Bogota climate is much more comfortable.

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WhiteBlue
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today I finally had to bite the bullet and fill up at he gas station. 45 L of diesel at €72. christ this is obscene. if I could get a conversion kit that would dedicate 60% of my diesel tank to natural gas I would buy it immediately. technically it isn't a problem. I do not need a reach of 1000 km with diesel anyway. 10 L diesel for exclusive 230 km reach would be ok. but combined with 35 L of natural gas it would probably give me reach of 1200 km and CO2 emissions down from 130 to 99 g/100km. the Krüger dual fuel research got me convinced. I could cut my fuel cost by 35% if I had such a conversion. it would pay for the engineering pritty soon. damn - I need someone to pioneer this or set up a business myself.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Prices in Colombia:

NGV: col $1152/m3 (0.40 euros/m3)
Gasoline: col $7126/gallon (0.64 euros/liter)

You cannot use NGV in diesel engines AFAIK, unless you buy an expensive conversion kit and it works only for some engines, sorry WhiteBlue.

I have a 20m3 cylinder for gas. The autonomy is half of that with gasoline. Of course, the car has a dual system, so autonomy is not a problem, actually, autonomy is increased by 50% (using both gasoline and gas).

I spend half the money per kilometer with NGV.

The conversion kit costs around 1.000 euros, but it's subsidized, so here you pay around 500 euros. Besides, you don't pay in advance: every car with NGV has a small "chip" in the engine (by law, the chip is installed when you do the conversion).

The system is that you pay a little more every time you fill your car, amortizing your debt. The chip "knows" how much you've paid and "informs" the pump how much to charge for the gas. When you finish paying the kit, the pump price is cheaper. Even with the small increase in price to pay for the conversion, you end paying less than if you use gasoline. BTW, I helped to design the law for this system of amortization (suggested by a friend in Argentina).

Some notes on NGV:

- The cylinder occupies half the trunk of your car and, with all the accesories, it weighs 80 kilos, like an additional passenger
- The engine will give you around 20% less power in a carburated car, around 10% less in an injected one.
- The engine has to be OK. The gas is dry, so the valve seats suffer a lot if they're not in perfect shape. On the other hand, the piston rings and the crankshaft are in a better shape in NGV moved cars.
- The engine contaminates a lot less. In Colombia you DON'T need to check your car's contamination levels once a year (as you're forced to do by law with conventional cars).
- There are few carbon deposits in the engine, so the oil lasts more.

Another note: biomethane is a way to get NGV, even if your country doesn't have natural gas from oil wells. AFAIK, "Sweden currently has a 51% biomethane share, [and] Switzerland 37%." France, Norway, Germany and Austria use smaller amounts for vehicles. "Iceland, completely without natural gas, uses 100% biomethane in its NGVs".

Final note: if you use wood chips or corn to produce natural gas, you get three times the energy of ethanol. Ehem. Do not forget that, please: biomethane exists but it's ignored by a lot of planners.

http://www.ngvglobal.com/en/editorial-c ... fuels.html

Even cow dung can be used to produce biomethane! Farts could power an F1 car! :D
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Ciro

Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Record fuel price today in Germany

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Here in Argentina es more or less the same about "GNC" -gas natural comprimido-
I think we are the country with more converted cars, even there were cars from factory sold with dual system.

All that Ciro wrote is confirmed by me who saw several times opened engines with more than 200.000km and almost 0 carbon deposits in piston head and first ring.

:-k mmm... about farts powered F1 cars... what about having a "bean stew" powered push to pass button? :lol:

This is LOCRO, what my grandma coocks every 25th may for the patriotic revolution fest, do you think she could get the job for cooking in an F1 team? :lol:
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WhiteBlue
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Ciro Pabón wrote:Prices in Colombia:

You cannot use NGV in diesel engines AFAIK, unless you buy an expensive conversion kit and it works only for some engines, sorry WhiteBlue.

I found the dual fuel systems from Australia.

http://www.alternativeengine.com/home.htm

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Uli Krüger has found a way to burn gas in a turbo diesel engine. He uses very low amounts of diesel to ignite basically the gas which could be hydrogen, natural gas or ethanol. the thermal efficiency is improved by much colder running because water is introduced by most of the gas used. that way one could use bio diesel and biogas to run a car. the disadvantage obviously is the weight of the storage tank for the gas but the diesel tank could be reduced to do this. I wonder if this is a simple way to boost efficiency. biogas is a fast developing industry which uses mainly organic waste from farming, domestic organic waste, sewage and the food and catering industry.

The heavy tank for the compressed gas could be overcome by using carbon fiber. The system would cost money sure but it would also make money. In Germany the difference between gas and diesel is 0.9 €/L. the best is that you can still have good reach with diesel in case you do not find an NGC or bio NGC station on a trip. for commuting it wouldn't be a problem anyway.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Interesting. The weight I quote for the cylinder is for a fiber glass one, I wonder if carbon fiber is justified, because maybe the price increase vs theweight savings wouldn't be great enough.
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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The real interesting application would be using the original space of the diesel tank and not needing additional space in the boot. this way you could fit the system in already economical 50 mpg hatchbacks without compromising transport capacity. It would boost these cars to perhaps 60 mpg and cut fuel cost by 65%.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)