General Honda F1 Topic

[ivanlesk]

Very poor engineering design from Honda. No wonder Mclaren were fed up. Have to replace the whole PU component due to an anomaly.
Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before. Surely this new ICE is the old conservative one and now only one more engine for rest of the year. Guess this nee combustion process will not happen.

Why do you bother writing something that does not contribute anything to the thread?
You get negative points, your messages are reported.

People must think before writing something. It is a recommendation, not a criticism.

When is pro Honda then is contributing to talk nonsense, but when is opposite then is not... interesting.

EDIT: while being at it. He did tell fact about poor design by Honda. Or that is lie?

[maguetox]

Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before. Surely this new ICE is the old conservative one and now only one more engine for rest of the year. Guess this nee combustion process will not happen.

Where are the data that support your statement? Even if this is a Honda topic, I think this kind of comments needs data in order to support it.

Even if is very...very...very frustrating that after all the millage of testing something like this happen, and as a Honda fan I would love to hear what happened more importantly is than my wishes, is that Honda understand why this issue doesn't show up during pre season testing, and what other potential issues are there that could affect the reliability of the PU due to the lack of Quality design, lack of equipment, technology, testing procedures or a combination of all or some of the reasons expressed before.

[McMika98]

Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before.

Where are the data that support your statement? Even if this is a Honda topic, I think this kind of comments needs data in order to support it.

Even if is very...very...very frustrating that after all the millage of testing something like this happen, and as a Honda fan I would love to hear what happened more importantly is than my wishes, is that Honda understand why this issue doesn't show up during pre season testing, and what other potential issues are there that could affect the reliability of the PU due to the lack of Quality design, lack of equipment, technology, testing procedures or a combination of all or some of the reasons expressed before.

As of last Gp, Honda engine reliability is at 50%. Fact. Without the reliability upgrade one can project that honda would be using 4 engines in the next 4 races. Thats statistically true unless yiu can prove otherwise

I dont mind being negatively rated so as long as it is valid. But surely an open forum can have criticism, be it constructive or negative as long as it is factual.
My point is other manufacturers seem to be able to interchange components of PU. Why cant Honda do that? Anyone care to guess and provide some technical insight?

[nzjrs]

My point is other manufacturers seem to be able to interchange components of PU. Why cant Honda do that? Anyone care to guess and provide some technical insight?

You are obviously wrong to some degree here, they aren't changing the ICE for Hartley.

[Wouter]

Very poor engineering design from Honda.
Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before.

Why do you blame Wazari for this engine failure? Tanabe did not say what the cause was of everything. It does not have to be on the MGU-H, Turbo or ICE at all. Perhaps the cause was a wrong placement in the car or something completely different. Without knowing anything about the cause, you should not just start to blame someone.

[Soichiro]

Very poor engineering design from Honda.
Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before.

Why do you blame Wazari for this engine failure? Tanabe did not say what the cause was of everything. It does not have to be on the MGU-H, Turbo or ICE at all. Perhaps the cause was a wrong placement in the car or something completely different. Without knowing anything about the cause, you should not just start to blame someone.

MGU-H & Turbo were changed on both cars due to reliability fix. You can check the news or view some posts in other Honda/STR related threads.

As for your comment McMika98... Just because MGU-H and turbo have to be changed simultaneously if one fails, you can not say it is a bad design "per se". There are pros and cons that were (i believe) thoroughly debated at Honda before making any decision. Sure when you have a failure is a bigger pain in the ass, more so when you have not matured the components and you basically know that a failure is going to occur, but I bet even you can think of some benefits such design brings. And based on the testing it is not worse than before. We will se how it does in the next few races. Hopefully a lot better.

[rogazilla]

Very poor engineering design from Honda. No wonder Mclaren were fed up. Have to replace the whole PU component due to an anomaly.
Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before. Surely this new ICE is the old conservative one and now only one more engine for rest of the year. Guess this nee combustion process will not happen.

Agree Honda has to improve the reliability and durability. The PU has to be able to survive some bump on the kerb (speculating cause of failure). No excuses there.

McMika is not fair to blame for poor engineering design. When things fail on a pu, you are lucky it is limited to one area. When a waterpump fail could overheat and cook the ICE. When a lifter fail could lead to valve, piston, rod and other failure. Depends on how MGU-H failed it is connected to the turbo and all of subsequent failure could happen. 'The anomaly was detected during test 2. It had a failure on the track at Melbourne.

How did you go from a failed MGU-H/Turbo to the conclusion that the new combustion process will not happen?!

[ivanlesk]

Very poor engineering design from Honda.
Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before.

Why do you blame Wazari for this engine failure? Tanabe did not say what the cause was of everything. It does not have to be on the MGU-H, Turbo or ICE at all. Perhaps the cause was a wrong placement in the car or something completely different. Without knowing anything about the cause, you should not just start to blame someone.

Of course, after McLaren was doing "wrong placement" in the car, now TR continues to do so...

[Revs84]

Very poor engineering design from Honda.
Wazari your spec 4.0 is even worse in terms of reliability than what they had before.

Why do you blame Wazari for this engine failure? Tanabe did not say what the cause was of everything. It does not have to be on the MGU-H, Turbo or ICE at all. Perhaps the cause was a wrong placement in the car or something completely different. Without knowing anything about the cause, you should not just start to blame someone.

Of course, after McLaren was doing "wrong placement" in the car, now TR continues to do so...

I'm pretty sure that's not what he implied.

[Revs84]

This is the general Honda thread, in the general chat forum, it isn't meant to be overly technical. McMika98's comments are no worse than others made here. The negative vote for "not technical" is invalid in this, a non-technical thread.

I can understand sentiment like theirs, it is frustrating and some people don't keep that frustration to themselves very well. Sure, the post could have been better thought out, but still, it wasn't any worse than a good number of awful comments written in many of the non-technical threads.

There's a clear difference between a post that could be better thought and one based on destructive criticism. McMika's post is clearly the latter.

His post was a personal attack on Wazari, for whatever reason that might be.

He also went on to claim several false facts;

1. That Honda have to replace whole PU due to anomaly - False
2. The new PU is a previous more conservative spec - No supporting facts
3. New combustion process will not happen - No supporting facts
4. Honda have only 1 engine left for entire season - False. Hartley still has 3, Gasly has 2.

Such comments do not contribute any value to the discussion and I'm completely with HPD on this one. Comments like this only instigate hate and division. Just because it is not worse than other comments does not make it any good and I hope Admins will take note and enforce more the clean up of these threads.

[McMika98]

I for one am seeing the glass half empty so shoot me if you dont like that perspective.

Anyways as an aspiring engineer if i was designing a system in this case a PU with 4 integral components, i would have a requirement to eliminate knock on failures. The failure although unexpected wasnt catastrophic, but then to have knock on effects is just poor design to me.

[etusch]

This is the general Honda thread, in the general chat forum, it isn't meant to be overly technical. McMika98's comments are no worse than others made here. The negative vote for "not technical" is invalid in this, a non-technical thread.

I can understand sentiment like theirs, it is frustrating and some people don't keep that frustration to themselves very well. Sure, the post could have been better thought out, but still, it wasn't any worse than a good number of awful comments written in many of the non-technical threads.

There's a clear difference between a post that could be better thought and one based on destructive criticism. McMika's post is clearly the latter.

His post was a personal attack on Wazari, for whatever reason that might be.

He also went on to claim several false facts;

1. That Honda have to replace whole PU due to anomaly - False
2. The new PU is a previous more conservative spec - No supporting facts
3. New combustion process will not happen - No supporting facts
4. Honda have only 1 engine left for entire season - False. Hartley still has 3, Gasly has 2.

Such comments do not contribute any value to the discussion and I'm completely with HPD on this one. Comments like this only instigate hate and division. Just because it is not worse than other comments does not make it any good and I hope Admins will take note and enforce more the clean up of these threads.

You are saying Hartley has 3 and Gasly has 2 PU ( Gasly started to use 2d and 1 unused ) But everybody forget something. Honda planning strategic penalties. Renault also declared such a plan. So they are not see themselves restricted with 3. I think that other 2 has a "B" plan for using 4th engine in season.
Another thing is Honda says his engine performance will be seen second part of season. Reliability was good at tests so this engine can run longer or can breake in the first use. It is not in best condition but it is not that bad too.

[604gtir]

You are saying Hartley has 3 and Gasly has 2 PU ( Gasly started to use 2d and 1 unused ) But everybody forget something. Honda planning strategic penalties. Renault also declared such a plan. So they are not see themselves restricted with 3. I think that other 2 has a "B" plan for using 4th engine in season.
Another thing is Honda says his engine performance will be seen second part of season. Reliability was good at tests so this engine can run longer or can breake in the first use. It is not in best condition but it is not that bad too.

strategic penalties after race 1? are you delusional

[Laserguru]

Stroll’s engine is likely to be replaced too due to exceeding the operating boundaries, presumably temperature, damage already done in training! So, is it not more a unique skill to balance on the edge of failure than to design the most powerfull and reliable power unit? Is this why Merc excells and their customer teams lag so much? And if so, should Honda invest more in investigating and understanding the wear and failure mechanisms than to focus on driveability, power and reliability sec? Or are they just too far off?

[ivanlesk]

You are saying Hartley has 3 and Gasly has 2 PU ( Gasly started to use 2d and 1 unused ) But everybody forget something. Honda planning strategic penalties. Renault also declared such a plan. So they are not see themselves restricted with 3. I think that other 2 has a "B" plan for using 4th engine in season.
Another thing is Honda says his engine performance will be seen second part of season. Reliability was good at tests so this engine can run longer or can breake in the first use. It is not in best condition but it is not that bad too.

Sorry, but after 4 years in development and having to change 3 components after first race is far from "not that bad".