Renault and the damper story

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ReubenG
ReubenG
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Joined: 21 Apr 2004, 15:31

Re: Renault and the damper story

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I haven't read Prof. Smith's articles in details yet but what seems key to me is that the 'inerter' only responds to relative acceleration of the nodes. Newton's 2nd (F=ma) applies to absolute acceleration (and my analyses nearly always start with this). Because rotation of the 'inerter' / 'J-Damper' will only occur with relative acceleration this adds an extra term to the equations of motion. The linear motion of the mass will also contribute, but it is possible to design a component with a high moment of inertia relative to its mass.

Checkered, thanks for the links.

scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Renault and the damper story

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The inerter, from the get go, certainly wasn't among the obscurest ideas. Prominently described by a professor from a prominent university, three years' application time into F1 (by the first team) from having access to complete documentation isn't exactly lightning fast.
Yes, but Mac worked with Smith back in 2003 and was racing the device from San Marino 2005. This predates Renaults less elegant (in comparison) front Mass Damper by nearly half a season (plus nearly a year before Renault had TMDs front and rear). Quite how Mac avoided the TMD ban I dont know.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Renault and the damper story

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scarbs wrote:Yes, but Mac worked with Smith back in 2003 and was racing the device from San Marino 2005. This predates Renaults less elegant (in comparison) front Mass Damper by nearly half a season (plus nearly a year before Renault had TMDs front and rear). Quite how Mac avoided the TMD ban I dont know.
Well, there was a

fair bit of irony in me "belittling" the effort - just a reflection on the disconnect between the "fast" image of F1 and what must be long days of massaging equations, lining up suppliers or arranging production capability otherwise, shaking out the gremlins on rigs, etc. It's actually impressive that McLaren came to contribute to the research at such an early point. Even on still not-so-close inspection of the documentation, there's certainly an appealing elegance to the analogies in how the idea is introduced. Equally the polarity between the simplicity of the mechanical operation and the complexity of making conscious use of the component is fascinating. Certainly the parallels with Renault's efforts (and especially the timescale comparison) are astonishing - but still, I can appreciate how this issue was miles apart from the traditional TMD.

Why and how the TMD was dealt with - as it was - has little to do with the inerter, if only (in hindsight) for the ultimate ungraciousness of that process. I'm only happy that the inerter didn't have to face similar "scrutiny", for it has an absolute value beyond the short-term advantage to a single F1 team. To me, its ultimate elegance lies mainly in not taking things for granted, exploring ground that I perceive remaining covered by ill advised prideridden oversight more than actual realised potential.

At the time when Renault had been abruptly denied of their damper, Pat Symonds (if my memory serves me) was interviewed waiting for a flight somewhere. I'm not sure if I didn't misinterpret something he said, but to me, Symonds seemed to suggest that he had gotten each part of the TMD signed as permissible by Whiting (or at least a technical delegate) - separately. This seemed counterintuitive at the time, and the issue remains unresolved to me. If it is possible, perhaps the inerter was similarly introduced.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Renault and the damper story

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it certainly provides a practical explanation why McLaren made inquiries that stopped the TMD in the first place. McLaren fans have denied the role for a long time because Ferrari appeared to profit more from it in the championship fight.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Mr. Pink
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Joined: 28 May 2008, 11:55

Re: Renault and the damper story

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Any info what an "I damper" is?

There is some info that Williams introduced it in Monaco.

scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Renault and the damper story

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The I damper is the same as McLaren J Damper, More correctly termed an Inerter, which in fact is not a damper at all...

Saribro
Saribro
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Joined: 28 Jul 2006, 00:34

Re: Renault and the damper story

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And for the really curious: I and J are the common letters used to refer to the moment of inertia of an object. (also considered the rotational equivalent of mass)

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Re: Renault and the damper story

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WhiteBlue wrote:it certainly provides a practical explanation why McLaren made inquiries that stopped the TMD in the first place. McLaren fans have denied the role for a long time because Ferrari appeared to profit more from it in the championship fight.
I thought McLaren were pretty open about their role in getting the Renault MD banned. No need for denial here. Mind you, no doubt at all that Ferrari gained too ;)

Saribo - that's a nice bit of info.............ta

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Renault and the damper story

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RH1300S wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:it certainly provides a practical explanation why McLaren made inquiries that stopped the TMD in the first place. McLaren fans have denied the role for a long time because Ferrari appeared to profit more from it in the championship fight.
I thought McLaren were pretty open about their role in getting the Renault MD banned. No need for denial here. Mind you, no doubt at all that Ferrari gained too ;)
yeah, when has that ever stopped the rabid fans to condamn people who were telling the truth? I was posting on a different board at that time btw. so no alusion to users here intended.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)